what is the diff between optimized and not??

[nightwyrm]

One good thing I can say about optimizers is that someone who makes an effort to optimize is at least interested in playing in the game. In my group the player who is the least organized, least prepared and misses the most games also has the least optimized character.

 

[FireLance]

If I could raise what is perhaps a more fundamental question:
How should optimization be measured in 4E anyway?

At the most basic level, I suppose one could look at how likely is the party to overcome the challenges they face in the game. However, assuming that even a non-optimized party already has a good chance of overcoming an equal-level challenge (and admittedly, I don't have any mathematical support for this assumption) then further optimization would only lead to a marginal increase in the chances of success.

If we look at the amount of resources used to overcome the challenge, the only resources that are not renewed after a short rest (or two, in the case of action points) are healing surges, daily powers, and consumables. And in the case of healing surges, a more optimized character that ends up being hit only once during the fight and a less optimized character that ends up being hit twice may end up spending the same number of healing surges to recover hit points during the short rest.

If we expand the time frame further, even the number of healing surges expended and daily powers used wouldn't make much of a difference if the optimized party and the non-optimized party end up taking an extended rest at the same point in an adventure regardless of how many healing surges and daily powers they have at that time (e.g. there is a logical break in the action - the party has just cleared out a dungeon, for example - or at the end of the adventure).

Is such a situation, does optimization simply allow you to look better when you're winning your fights?

 

[Similkameen]

optimized versus fun

As a random aside, having "non-optimized" characters is what made me hate and eventually quit WoW. No one wants to bring you to an instance or raid unless you have "the best build evar", which essentially means you have to make a character everyone else wants you to play, or you don't play. If this is the attitude that new and old 4e players are starting to have, I fear for the future.

The games I am in (4e and 3.5) have both players who optimize their characters, and players who are trying out something for the fun of it. The optimizers for the most part are aiming for a particular goal, and not just DPR, although that is a strong element.
Generally there is good game balance, as not everyone is there to do lots of damage, they're interested in optimizing other abilities, or just having fun roleplaying a certain type of character.
I think you're OK

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

it is brand new DDi in the rouge articale this month...use heavy blades as if they are light blades...

WHAAAT??

 

[Charwoman Gene]

It's a matter of playstyle. I don't play in games with optimizers.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

WHAAAT??

umm...well it is kinda...um...

Versatile Duelist
Prerequisite: Rogue
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all onehanded, military heavy blades. If a rogue power requires you to wield a light blade, you can use that power with a one-handed heavy blade and can also deal your Sneak Attack damage while using a onehanded heavy blade with that power.

notice that even though it gives only Military profs, there is no cut off dor say the bastard sword...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

While I was annoyed that so many- well, ALL- of the original 4Ed PBH Rogue low-level melee powers that worked required "light blades" (pity the thuggish rogue), I can't say that I find Versatile Duelist to be much of an improvement.

Why?

1) It should have opened up those powers to more traditional thuggish weapons, like clubs, etc., or those that have been used by criminal organizations, like hand axes, not just other blades. And what of the seafaring rogues?

2) There should have been some melee powers for low-level thuggish rogues that contemplated using heavier weapons in the first place. Chains, for instance, have been a popular weapon among thugs since they were invented.

 

[Destil]

what is the diff between optimized and not??

Generally the differences are:

Bloodclaw or Reckless weapon/Staff of the Warmage or weapon as an implement (with feat support).

Expertiese feats. Hero of the Faith.

Armbands of Iron Power or Bracers of Archery.

Lots of items, feats and powers that boost one very narrow thing (charge attacks or save penalties for example).

 

[kenmarable]

As a random aside, having "non-optimized" characters is what made me hate and eventually quit WoW. No one wants to bring you to an instance or raid unless you have "the best build evar", which essentially means you have to make a character everyone else wants you to play, or you don't play. If this is the attitude that new and old 4e players are starting to have, I fear for the future.

Back when I played WoW that was precisely why I avoided any and all raids or group activities larger than my wife and I. We had a lot of fun utterly avoiding all group activities. (And, before you ask why we were playing an MMO then, if WoW was as cool as it is and could run just on our local network, we'd prefer it that way.)

And in my experience online, I think it's just a vocal group of 4e players that treat the game that way. They are allowed to play how they like, but if I see another "Why would you play that race/class combo because the ability score bonuses don't match?!" comment I'll scream. That's my particular annoyance with *some* fans that I'm seeing FAR FAR more with 4e than previous editions.

Example 1: I want to play a wand wizard Hafling (+2 dex helps this build) that spent his first 3 feats multi into warlock, taking linguastics, and taking the first feat for the vistini... but I was told that would be a lag on the group...

I really hesitate to use this statement, but quite frankly I think they are playing it wrong. It's a cooperative game, and when they are telling you what you can and can't play, even if you are still valuable to the party, well, then they are missing that whole "cooperative" thing. We don't try to "win" at D&D.

To me, this is what sets PnP games apart from that. I loath DPS calculcations for PnP games. It makes them unfun to me.

Same here. I can certainly understand some people being interested in that, and I'm perfectly cool with that - as long as they keep their calculations to their own PC. But once they start DPS calculating my PC, watch out. As others have said, as long as I'm more benefit than burden, and more fun than distracting, I could care less what my DPS is.

My line is if people want to optimize their own PC, that's great. Enjoy the game however you want. Once you start trying to optimize other people's PCs when they haven't asked you to, that's just rude. Don't be down wit' O.P.P.C., k?

 

[MrMyth]

While I was annoyed that so many- well, ALL- of the original 4Ed PBH Rogue low-level melee powers that worked required "light blades" (pity the thuggish rogue), I can't say that I find Versatile Duelist to be much of an improvement.

Why?

1) It should have opened up those powers to more traditional thuggish weapons, like clubs, etc., or those that have been used by criminal organizations, like hand axes, not just other blades. And what of the seafaring rogues?

They actually did part of that back in Martial Power, with a rogue build that can use clubs and maces.

That said, I think your approach - having specific rogue powers that can use a wider range of weapons - wouldn't be a bad one. I can understand WotC's desire to limit them both for flavor and mechanical reasons. I think we've seen some decent approaches - I like the idea of Versatile Duelist, aside from the bastard sword loophole. Opening up one-handed military weapons isn't too abusive. Another feat that opened up two-handed or superior weapons, but reduced sneak attack used through them, would also work for me.