what is the diff between optimized and not??

[Kzach]

I used 2nd level, but feel free to use any heroic levels as long as everyone is on equal footing to start...

And herein lies the problem of your argument.

The more levels you gain, the greater the disparity between an optimised and non-optimised character will be.

And even at 2nd level, consider that the 3 point damage difference you cite adds up to 30 points of damage over 10 rounds. That's one less monster the party has to grind through to succeed at the encounter.

I find gaming with people who bring non-optimised characters to the table just ends up in everyone feeling the 'grind' of 4e combat. Whenever I've played in groups where the majority of characters are optimised and everyone knows their role, combats are much faster and much more fun.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The number of splatbooks used. If it's 3e, Forgotten Realms splats count double.

 

[Woas]

I believe an optimized character is one that has beliefs, traits or otherwise goals that are clear and concise as to easily express what the player feels is important to the game and themselves, and wants the GM/Referee/Judge/Story Teller/Whatever the kids call it these days to focus on.

An unoptimized character has wishy-washy, not serious beliefs, traits or otherwise goals that make it clear the player is afraid to have their character take a stand on a certain topic.

 

[MrMyth]

Yes.

More then that, 4e hosts itself up as a team based combat game, where each member is meant to contribute as much as they can to the team during the fight. As such, you have a responsibility to your team and to your other players to be good at your job.

If you're in a fight and your leader slacks off, it's not just him that loses fun, but the whole team. 4e has, if anything, made it MORE important to optimize yourself.

It is very hard in 4E to make a character who is useless. You could still end up with a useless player, admittedly - someone who built an illegal character, doesn't know how to play the game, and doesn't participate in combats. But that's an issue independant of system.

4E, though, makes it so that for even inexperienced players, you can typically have a functional and capable character that contribues well to each encounter. No optimization required.

In the end, an optimized character will always be more capable than a non-optimized character (at whatever they specifically optimize for). This can't be avoided without removing the entire concept of choices in character creation (class, ability scores, feats, etc). However, 4E tries to much more tightly restrict how far a character can expand upward from the average, while also trying to make it difficult for one to accidently create a useless character.

The second they have, I think, succeeded at quite well. The first.... they've definitely make a good attempt, certainly. Making it harder to stack bonuses, and standardizing certain elements like adding 1/2 level to attack, results in a much tighter range of results. As more splatbooks come out, and more power creep arises, an optimized character can get farther and farther ahead - but even then, I don't think it is yet nearly as extreme as it used to get. An average character and an optimized character can typically both take part in the same combat and each feel effective - the optimized character might feel significantly more so, might even be dealing out twice as much damage or so forth, but rarely will their capability be so far ahead that the other character is trivialized, or that the other character is incapable of helping against an enemy that is genuinely challenging to the optimized character.

 

[nightwyrm]

One of the most broken build in 4e is the orbizard. If we totally twink him out, he can essentially cast what amounts to a "Save or Die" (or in 4e terms, "hit and die") once per encounter at lv 30.

Compare that with what a 3.5 wizard can do just by picking the right spells.

 

[cattoy]

[sblock=my work]Level 2 PCs… fighting level 3 soldiers but with CA 19 AC’s, and 15 Nads…

Player A one handed Fighter Dragonborn
20 str expertise long sword weapon focus longsword

Basic attack +13 1d8+6 DPR 8.05
Tide of Iron same
Cleve same

Player B Battle rage two weapon fighter Dwarf
16 str 16 Con 16 wis Dwarven Weapon training, ranger multi class (for math he has temp hp)

Basic attack +8 1d10+5 DPR 5.75
Dual strike +8 1d10+2 (two targets) DPR 4.25
Crushing Surge same as basic

Player C Rouge Human
18 Dex 16 Cha Heavy blade duelist training, back stabber, weapon expertise heavyblade

Sly flourish +11 1d8+7+2d8 DPR 13.85
Piercing strike same but vs NAD DPR 17.95


Player D Warlock Teifling
16 Con 16 cha linguistics, skill focus

Eldritch Blast +4 1d10+3+1d6 DPR 6.35
Hellish rebuke +4 1d6+3+1d6 DPR 5.25


Player E Warlord half orc
18 str 14 Int spike chain training, Armor prof scale

Basic attack +9 2d4+4 DPR 5.1
Viper Strike same
Wolf pack tactics same

I'm no expert at 4e, but I'm having trouble figuring out how you came by these numbers. Are there magic items involved?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm no expert at 4e, but I'm having trouble figuring out how you came by these numbers. Are there magic items involved?

looking back it looks like I gave them +1 weapons and CA (the warlock doesn't get the CA becuse he is at range)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

One of the most broken build in 4e is the orbizard. If we totally twink him out, he can essentially cast what amounts to a "Save or Die" (or in 4e terms, "hit and die") once per encounter at lv 30.

Compare that with what a 3.5 wizard can do just by picking the right spells.

I am right now in a once a month 3.5 every wotc book allowed game, it started at 6th level...

I have multi SoS (save or suck) spells starting with 2nd level tasha's Laughter spell...I also have charm, and...shoot I can;t even remember what 3rd level spells I have right now... but my save DC is so high most creatures need 17+ to make them so far...

I also used command undead (maybe control undead...the 2nd level one) to take control of a big undead creature with a nasty str drain aura that is my new best friend...

(by the way I am a grey elf with the 3rd age catagory and a headband of Int, and I started with an 18 INt...25 Int, that jumped to 26 at 4th level)

 

[cattoy]

looking back it looks like I gave them +1 weapons and CA (the warlock doesn't get the CA becuse he is at range)

ah. and this? Heavy blade duelist training

what book is this from?

 

[Dausuul]

The difference between super-optimized and extremely-poorly-optimized is fairly dramatic, especially at higher levels.

That said, it doesn't necessarily make a big difference. If everyone in the party is at the same level of optimization, it usually works out okay; the DM just ratchets the challenge level up or down to compensate. The exception is if people are sufficiently un-optimized that combat turns into a slog.

4E is prone to grind with un-optimized PCs, because most of your decisions during chargen affect your attacks rather than your defenses; so a well-optimized character will have strong offense and fair defense, while a poorly-optimized one will have weak offense but still a fair defense.