what is the diff between optimized and not??

[Dausuul]

I like the idea of Versatile Duelist, aside from the bastard sword loophole. Opening up one-handed military weapons isn't too abusive. Another feat that opened up two-handed or superior weapons, but reduced sneak attack used through them, would also work for me.

Just wondering - what's the "bastard sword loophole?" Is it just that you can get proficiency with a bastard sword and have 1d10 weapon damage with your rogue powers? I'm not seeing why this is a loophole; it seems like bog-standard "drop a feat on a superior weapon, get a better damage die" to me.

 

[keterys]

In cases where the adventure scales to the number of people, but not as intelligently as something custom made by a DM - ie, any case of using a module to determine an xp budget, LFR, etc, I have seen cases where a player was more of a detriment to the party than if they hadn't been there.

But usually it's due to their own ability to play, rather than their ability to craft their character. The wrong feats, gear, whatever can easily make a difference of, say, +2 attack +5 damage, but using the wrong powers, attacking the wrong guy, etc can be even more harmful.

I have seen the other side, where some people are so extraordinary that they're worth far more than is added in recompense and they very actively make everything easier for people. And in some cases they make things _too_ easy, detracting from the fun. Like an elite BBEG who never gets a chance to act.

 

[MrMyth]

Just wondering - what's the "bastard sword loophole?" Is it just that you can get proficiency with a bastard sword and have 1d10 weapon damage with your rogue powers? I'm not seeing why this is a loophole; it seems like bog-standard "drop a feat on a superior weapon, get a better damage die" to me.

Well, mainly because the feat gives proficiency with non-superior weapons, which makes it feel like an oversight that it also allows for a superior weapon to then take advantage of the rest of the feat.

Additionally... as it stands now, the feat is basically on par with rogues getting a superior weapon. They could get a rapier, or they could use a longsword as a light blade. So adding the feat doesn't alter the rogue power balance, just expands their options. A+, in my book.

But letting it basically stack with the other feat now means they can expand two steps up from the initial default damage dice of their weapon. Not gamebreaking, by any means, but means the feat fills a very different role than it would otherwise, and means that suddenly a bastard sword is essentially the best weapon for rogues, rather than them having a large list of potentially equally balanced options to choose from. (Even then, things like Double Sword win out, but mainly due to issues with Double Weapons. On the other hand, when you can have longsword, dagger and rapier all in equal competition, that feels like a better accomplishment than just letting bastard sword trump them all.)

 

[rjdafoe]

One good thing I can say about optimizers is that someone who makes an effort to optimize is at least interested in playing in the game. In my group the player who is the least organized, least prepared and misses the most games also has the least optimized character.

IME, the the problem is that the most optimized person is also the person who get's upset when people make decisions that they would not have made during game play (and in character generation), and having a problem "losing" in anything game related.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

IME, the the problem is that the most optimized person is also the person who get's upset when people make decisions that they would not have made during game play (and in character generation), and having a problem "losing" in anything game related.

Ohhhh yes.

I have a buddy who plays mages almost exclusively...for the past 23 years. His PCs spell-lists are virtually indistinguishable.

I, OTOH, make my spellcasters unique, with their spell-lists reflecting their personalities and experiences.

Never has this been more obvious than in our party that went through RttToEE: he's playing his typical optimized single-classed generalist wizard. I'm playing a Diviner/Ftr/Rgr/SpellSword who has only 1 or 2 offensive spells.

This has driven him nuts.

At one point when I suggested (in character) that his mage copy spells from my tome and vice versa in order to improve the party's flexibility & firepower, he said (in character) "No."

Nevermind that by doing so would free up some of his lower level spells so that he could concentrate on pure firepower, or that it would make his PC less vulnerable since he wouldn't be the only one slinging damage spells (and therefore, other casters or ranged attackers couldn't simply concentrate fire upon him) he wouldn't do it because he was punishing me for my sub-optimal character.

 

[Dausuul]

Never has this been more obvious than in our party that went through RttToEE: he's playing his typical optimized single-classed generalist wizard. I'm playing a Diviner/Ftr/Rgr/SpellSword who has only 1 or 2 offensive spells. ...

Nevermind that by doing so would free up some of his lower level spells so that he could concentrate on pure firepower, or that it would make his PC less vulnerable since he wouldn't be the only one slinging damage spells...

Wait, wait, wait.

He's playing a single-classed wizard in 3E? And he's slinging direct damage spells?

Pfeh. No properly optimized 3E wizard wastes his time on direct damage. Real wizards specialize, crank up their Int as high as it will go, load up on save-or-lose spells, and ban Evocation. I bet he's not even on track to become an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Tell him he's a n00b who should learn to play.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Wait, wait, wait.

He's playing a 3E single-classed wizard? And he's slinging direct damage spells?

Not exclusively.

Pfeh. No properly optimized 3E wizard wastes his time on direct damage. Real wizards specialize, crank up their Int as high as it will go, load up on save-or-lose spells, and ban Evocation.

Eh, Goodman games would disagree. At any rate, he does load up on save/die spells and flex spells and boosts his Int at every turn.

He doesn't play specialists, though. Ever. He'd rather be the man with at least one answer for every problem than the guy with a small blind spot...partly because he's usually the only real arcanist in the group.

Of course, THAT is partly a self-fulfilling prophesy. He plays solo-classed mages because nobody else does, but nobody else does because they know he's going to be playing a mage.