Return on Investment

[Mistwell]

Interesting, I never recall reading anything about that in any of the original books.

We're talking business models. The business model of TSR during the 1e era was to get people to buy more books. Their focus was often on modules, and they added a focus on miniatures and even toys later. Are you disputing any of that? Are you saying because there was not a business model in the 1e DMG spelled out that it therefore did not exist?

 

[jdrakeh]

Are you saying because there was not a business model in the 1e DMG spelled out that it therefore did not exist?

Well, in this thread, he's saying that OD&D/AD&D were complete in three books because the DM could make up rules for whatever was missing despite supplemental rules being printed, but that 3e and 4e are not complete in three books because supplemental rules were printed (which, for some reason, makes buying those supplements mandatory and prevents the DM from making things up). So, yes, he's probably saying that. Dude has a serious no logic hate-on for 3e/4e, apparently.

 

[delericho]

My comment here is going to age me no doubt, but as far as I'm concerned, there should be 3 core books.

Didn't Gygax himself consider "Deities & Demigods" to be a fourth core rulebook?

As we've seen with 4E already, WOTC has a business model designed to dupe the gamer into buying a book every few months...

Of course WotC want you to buy more books! No RPG company can live on core rulebook sales alone - even if the books sold well enough to keep the company going, there would be no justification in continuing to employ the staff for the 8ish years until you do the next edition!

And even back in the day business concerns sometimes trumped 'gaming concerns' - "Unearthed Arcana" was rushed out the door to plug a hole in TSR's finances.

Now, that said, WotC have changed the emphasis somewhat. They have emphasised selling to players over selling to DMs (that TSR also did that somewhat with 2nd Edition). And, of course, with 4e they have instituted a rigid balance in the game, such that DMs are very likely to allow supplements into their games, where in 3e they were often more choosy.

I'm not sure either of these are bad things, though. If players want to buy classbooks, where's the harm? It's not exactly evidence of some grand evil conspiracy! And I'm not sure how balance can be decried as an inherently bad thing. At worst, it's just not to your taste.

 

[Derulbaskul]

(snip) Entertainment hours vs. cost is an oft repeated, frequent cliché - but it has nothing to do with the reality of how people in real life choose to spend their money, and as oft-repeated clichés go, it's pretty useless. People just aren't Vulcans. If they were, it'd be much easier to sell products or services in this world!

While I do get your point, the reason I often use the hours vs cost argument whether on the internet or in real life is simply to try and make the argument as fact-based as possible.

It's easy to say "D&D is expensive" or "Hasbro only wants to make profits" and attract a tabloid audience but if the comment is being made to provoke dialogue then part of that dialogue, at least at some point, should include a proper examination of the facts.

 

[Umbran]

It was meant to have the negative connotation.
If people like to look at WOTC as a resource for content, that's fine.
But the original spirit of the game was that content was up to the gamers. Perhaps contemporary gamers are just lazier..... ?

Glaucon, you are fairly new around here, so allow me to remind you of The Rules to which you agreed in creating your EN World account.

Rule #1 is "Keep it civil" - in effect, you have admitted that your intent was to be insulting. I'm going to suggest you rethink your approach - outright claiming that others are, in general, stupid or lazy simply isn't acceptable here.

And, as a general suggestion - don't engage in internet telepathy with the dead. Gygax and Arneson have passed. You were not appointed the person to speak for them, such that folks will accept that you can claim to know their intent. You'll generally find that such assertions will be rejected.

If you have any questions about constructive posting on EN World, any of the moderators will be quite willing to discuss it with you. You can PM us, or send us e-mail. Our addresses can be found in a post stickied to the top of the Meta forum. Thanks.

 

[Voadam]

And the same holds for a D&D book. Which is why I posit that it could cost $100 and we'd still all buy it. Or, if we didn't want it it could cost $5 and we'd still not buy it.

I don't think so. If they had priced it at $5 I would have preordered the 4e PH.

I was satisfied with 2e when 3e came out but they priced the 3e PH aggressively and I preordered it to check it out, thinking it would be neat but I'd keep using the tons of basic, 1e, and 2e stuff I had. I was won over by the PH and srd and embraced 3e quickly and wholeheartedly.

When 4e was anounced I was happy with 3e/OGL stuff but interested in some things they hinted would be in 4e (non divine healers, any number of classes mulitclassing at any levels and always working balance wise, etc.). Then no srd for referencing core rules. Prices not aggressive enough for me to make the three book plunge. No free quickstart rules to dive in right away. PDFs offered at $25 each, not cheap enough to tempt me to get them, then gone entirely.

It wasn't until this fall that I played a 4e game, and that without a PH (by then quickstart rules explaining core mechanics and combat had been released though). I liked it and had fun but it was not enough for me to buy a PH, it wasn't until WotC's holiday PH I & II deal that I decided to spend $23 for the two book deal.

Similarly, I liked playing WFRP 1e years ago but the 2e stuff looks great and interesting but is more expensive than I am interested in paying so I have not gotten any of it.

Price points can matter.

 

[Desdichado]

If we discussed only things that pertained to how we live our lives, there would not be much to say here, I would imagine.

Really? I could talk ad nauseum about things that pertain to how I live my life.

Then again, maybe I wouldn't do that here...

 

[weem]

Really? I could talk ad nauseum about things that pertain to how I live my life.

Well, what I was getting at (and perhaps didn't word correctly enough) was D&D/RPG's (for the most part) have nothing to do with 'how we live our lives' so it would not be discussed here... and so there would not be much here to see.

You are right, and I could too as there are TONS of other things we could talk about... but they would not necessarily be fitting with the purpose of this forum

Then again, maybe I wouldn't do that here...

Indeed

 

[jcayer]

Man,
When I started this thread, all I was looking for was 8-10 replies to see where people fell on the money spent/value proposition.
That being said, I have to agree with the comment above, you only need the 3 core books, which is how we all started. However, the additional material does provide value and that is something you have to judge. I have purchased some of the additional books, and ignored others. To each his own.
Josh

 

[Raven Crowking]

234 hours of enjoyment for $125. Now that's impressive to me, but I suspect other people here have even better ROIs.

Anyone?

If you were playing OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, or Labyrinth Lord, you could have had the same 234 hours of enjoyment for $0.

So, yes, other people have even better ROIs!

RC