Using the Monk Power Structure with other Classes

[Stalker0]

I'm a big fan of the monk power structure, that basically not only gives you an attack, but also unlocks new abilities for your other actions at the same time.

I was thinking of also using it to tweak some at wills for other classes. Here are some examples.

Priest's Shield
Standard Action: Str vs AC (1 target)
Hit: 1[w] + str

Minor: Gives yourself or an ally a +1 power bonus to AC.


So in this case, the hit part of the power has been weakened, and the AC bonus has been turned into a quasi effect power with an action cost.

So with this power the cleric has many options, here are just a few of them:

1) Make an attack, move, and give himself or an ally a +1 to AC.
2) Make an attack, and gives himself and an ally a +1 bonus to AC.
3) Gives himself and two allies a +1 bonus to AC.


We can instantly see how much more flexible this power has become with this change, there are a whole lot of new options you can do.

Let's try the Rogue's Deft Strike

Deft Strike
Standard: Dex vs AC, Hit 1[w] + dex
Minor: Shift 1 square.

So now the rogue could shift in and shift out, shift in 2, etc.

 

[Lord_Psathus]

I absolutely LOVE this idea. It's a very interesting concept, and I'd love to see somebody test them out. (I may test them out myself)

However, I had a very similar discussion on powers around a week ago, and somebody proposed the idea that, while the slightest bit broken, would provide for some very interesting tactics.

It takes your idea and amps it up a bit. Instead of tying those minor action effects to the powers, it basically makes them available for different powers, meaning you could activate one of the "effects" of a power, and one of the "attacks" of the power, and only expend those portions.

For example, the power Priest's Shield would still retain it's attack concept, however, it's effect would be taken away from the attack power itself, meaning that you could use another cleric power and activate Priest's Shield's effect in conjunction to it. However, this would mean you could not activate whatever other effect was tacked on to the other power the cleric expended.

What do you think about that? If you're already going this far with changing powers, it isn't much of a major leap, and it allows for more strategy during battle.

 

[Mentat55]

You're really hitting the house rules hard today

This is an extremely intriguing idea. This could really open up a huge design space for making at-will powers that look and play very differently. It would also offer a completely new facet to balancing at-will powers.

A mediocre (or even bad) at-will attack, like Sure Strike/Careful Attack, could suddenly become a lot more attractive if it had a cool move or minor action associated with it.

I wonder, though, in the example you give with Priest's Shield. Is it weaker, because it now has an action cost? Is it better, because, provided you are willing to spend a minor action, you can always get the benefit, and because you can spend multiple minor actions to spread out that benefit? Intriguing questions. I am inclined to say the action cost > benefit, but I am sure that I could be convinced otherwise.

What if you went more completely in the direction of the monk, and simply kept the at-will powers as-is, but gave them a move or minor action corollary as well?

 

[Elsidar]

I wonder, though, in the example you give with Priest's Shield. Is it weaker, because it now has an action cost? Is it better, because, provided you are willing to spend a minor action, you can always get the benefit, and because you can spend multiple minor actions to spread out that benefit? Intriguing questions. I am inclined to say the action cost > benefit, but I am sure that I could be convinced otherwise.

What if you went more completely in the direction of the monk, and simply kept the at-will powers as-is, but gave them a move or minor action corollary as well?

Why not keep the "Hit:" entry the same, and just add that "Minor:" entry? That way, if you decide to attack, and you're successful, you can still produce the benefit if you're pressed for actions.

 

[ravenheart]

Interesting concept. I think the minor/move powers should only be associated with attack in question - mostly for balance reasons, but also because it makes more sense doing it like that. But I'm gonna give it a shot, let's see...

Sure Strike
Standard Action: Str +2 vs. AC (1 target)
Hit: 1[w]

Move: Enemies hit by Sure Strike are marked (save ends).
Minor: Add your Wis modifier to the damage dealt with Sure Strike.

Careful Attack
Standard Action: Str/Dex +2 vs. AC (1 target)
Hit: 1[w]

Move: You can score a critical hit with Careful Attack on a roll of 18-20.
Minor: Add your Wis modifier to damage dealt with Careful Attack.

 

[keterys]

Move actions should relate to moving - if you do it that way, you end up bringing back the 'full attack' in effect by making standing around in a static fashion desirable.

The other problem is that you can potentially make basic attacks and charges too desirable, by making people want to do one power's minor/move aspect, then using their standard for something else. That could easily happen to Sure/Careful at any rate.

The real answer is for Sure/Careful to just not suck on their own merits I do like how the monk works, though.

 

[ravenheart]

I'm asuming you're referring to my post, If not, ignore if you will.

Move actions should relate to moving - if you do it that way, you end up bringing back the 'full attack' in effect by making standing around in a static fashion desirable.

The other problem is that you can potentially make basic attacks and charges too desirable, by making people want to do one power's minor/move aspect, then using their standard for something else. That could easily happen to Sure/Careful at any rate.

The real answer is for Sure/Careful to just not suck on their own merits I do like how the monk works, though.

Well you could consider the move actions in question as maintaining balance and focus, matching your foes every step as you lock on to each other, make a quick tumble or quickly go down on one knee before executing a well-aimed blow or shot. Remember that squares are an abstraction, and that a character is not merely standing in the center of a 5 foot square, but rather weaving and dodging about.

Nonetheless, I wouldn't set it as a norm for move actions to be used this way, I just found it fitting with the theme of these particular powers. As for it turning into full-attack nonsense yet again - well, sometimes you really need to move (ex. lurkers jumping up on your controller from the back, or brutes breaking the front lines charging at you), and other times you really have no use for that move action (fighter surrounded by enemies, ranger in the back delivering a steady stream of arrows). These options are for those times. Besides, as I suggested the power, a minor action would make it overpowered, don't you think?

And as I said, albeit not that clearly, these move and minor action uses of powers would only apply to the standard action usage of the power, ON THE SAME TURN. So no basic attack/charge creep. Unless you go HBO, but that's another story...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I like the idea, keterys. Maybe this should have been the approach in the first place to deal with "combat utility" powers... Nah, probably not, too complicated trying to link every attack power with a utility power. But I suppose it could fix some peoples issue with the "I hit a guy and another person gets healed?" that many leader powers have. Though I am not sure it does so much to help this - there is still the question why the attack and the buff are linked.

Interesting concept. I think the minor/move powers should only be associated with attack in question - mostly for balance reasons, but also because it makes more sense doing it like that. But I'm gonna give it a shot, let's see...

Sure Strike
Standard Action: Str +2 vs. AC (1 target)
Hit: 1[w]

Move: Shift 3 squares, but you must end the shift adjacent to the target.
Minor: The target cannot gain combat advantage until the end of its next turn.

Careful Attack
Standard Action: Str/Dex +2 vs. AC (1 target)
Hit: 1[w]

Move: Shift 2 squares, but you must end the shift or move closer to the target.
Minor: You do not provoke opportunity attacks from the target until the end of your next turn.

As keterys said - move actions are for movement. We want to keep people mobile.

Your minor action idea has its appeal, but I dislike the timing - you take a standard action, hit the target, take a move action, and then decide to spend a minor action to deal extra damage? Feels wrong to me.

An alternative wording might make this work better, though:
Minor: If you hit the target with Careful Attack/Sure Strike before the end of your current turn, you add your Wisdom Modifier to the damage.

 

[keterys]

You know, technically you could get even wackier with the actions...

Sure Strike
Standard: Usual
Opportunity Attack: (Sure Strike)

Which makes the fighter better at immobilizing people. Or maybe even just normal OA at +2 to hit, and let it have the full damage.

I could totally see defenders getting all kinds of opportunity attack options like that.

I will say that I think you're better off having Priest's Shields base effect still give the AC bonus, while also adding the other option. You're still restricted by only using one power per turn (modulo AP) per the monk rules and, sure, it ups the power of everyone slightly... but it consistently does so, and doesn't leave them with powers that are on par with basic attacks. Good.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You know, technically you could get even wackier with the actions...

Sure Strike
Standard: Usual
Opportunity Attack: (Sure Strike)

Which makes the fighter better at immobilizing people. Or maybe even just normal OA at +2 to hit, and let it have the full damage.

I could totally see defenders getting all kinds of opportunity attack options like that.

I will say that I think you're better off having Priest's Shields base effect still give the AC bonus, while also adding the other option. You're still restricted by only using one power per turn (modulo AP) per the monk rules and, sure, it ups the power of everyone slightly... but it consistently does so, and doesn't leave them with powers that are on par with basic attacks. Good.

Isn't that mostly the same as making it a basic attack?