[sblock=Evo] Nah, there's no point in going nova if no one is going to be around my badguy. My powers don't do much damage unless I also have allies directly next to my target. When I get a bunch of my allies around the tentacles, then I'll go nova. Most of my powers state a bonus to damage for every ally within X squares and there's really no point in doing it unless I have at least 3 allies next to my target. If I could get Feal, Val, and at least one other, I'm pretty sure I could kill the thing in one or two rounds, but until then... it's a waste of resources, and I need Lan to get to 5th level before I retire him or he dies, lol. [/sblock]
[Adventure] Trouble in Moonwatch (Judge:TwoHeadsBarking)
- Thread starter renau1g
- Start date
- Status
CaBaNa
First Post
[sblock=OOC]
Pok had set Lan up, knowing he could do it, but Sheeva has had a hard time understanding how the group works, and shoved it into a very inconvenient spot...
Maybe if Pok could find a way to communicate that Lan, Val, Riv, and himself aren't out to get her...
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Pok had set Lan up, knowing he could do it, but Sheeva has had a hard time understanding how the group works, and shoved it into a very inconvenient spot...
Maybe if Pok could find a way to communicate that Lan, Val, Riv, and himself aren't out to get her...
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[sblock=CBN]
It wasn't "inconvenient" for Sheeva.
KD understood exactly what you were doing.
Sheeva was being roleplayed. You moved the creature closer to her when it had already smacked her hard. That's the opposite of what you should have been doing from her POV.
Sheeva moving the creature further away was buying time so that she can be effective in combat this encounter. We've had two back to back encounters where she was a primary target early and damaged in round one, and that's not a good overall plan for the group.
Also, the group does not "work" in any given way. Each player makes decisions, sometimes in concert with others. Any action by a PC or NPC can instantly change the dynamics and alter anyone's plans. Yours. Mine. Anyone's.
Pok wanted to set up flank for Lan and Faell. Sheeva wanted to get out of a damaging grab, especially not knowing if the encounter is going to last 3 rounds or 30 rounds. There is no way she's going to stay put.
So, you'll just have to suck up the fact that I'm going to roleplay Sheeva to keep herself alive and not rely on River to keep her alive and Lan to kill the enemy.
I'll bet money that if Pok was grabbed and Sheeva was not, that Pok would have tried a spell to get the foe moved away as well. No spell caster is just going to stay put if s/he has an option to get out of a grab, ally flank or no ally flank.
PS. You should be posting your thoughts in character. Out of character, it's just a discussion. In character, it's roleplaying. Sheeva thinks Pok screwed up (again, once starting the fight and once moving the monster towards her). Can't roleplay that if you insist on OOCs.
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renau1g
First Post
[sblock=ooc]
Tamarand would probably do the same thing as Sheeva if Roswyn moved a bad guy next to him, that being said in the future if somone has an action planned out and require another party member to do a certain set of actions, I'd suggest that person communicate it IC as a shout across the battlefield. (or in the kalashter's case a telepathic message). Communication is king, both to communicate your characters actions and plans as well as the rationale for those things. It is fairly difficult for your only defender to lock down the enemies, especially in a spread out battle like this. [/sblock]
Tamarand would probably do the same thing as Sheeva if Roswyn moved a bad guy next to him, that being said in the future if somone has an action planned out and require another party member to do a certain set of actions, I'd suggest that person communicate it IC as a shout across the battlefield. (or in the kalashter's case a telepathic message). Communication is king, both to communicate your characters actions and plans as well as the rationale for those things. It is fairly difficult for your only defender to lock down the enemies, especially in a spread out battle like this. [/sblock]
CaBaNa
First Post
[sblock=OOC]
We agree KD, it was inconvenient for everyone except Sheeva. However, as renau1g said, Tamarand (Who runs with Pok's twin sister Roswyn) would have done something similar. Not criticizing your role play, I'm complaining about what Sheeva did, not what you did.
I never implied KD didn't understand what Pok was doing.
It was the opposite of what Sheeva thought Pok should do, not of what I should do, Sheeva doesn't know who I am.
I'm not criticizing your play, I'm lamenting Sheeva's actions. The group did work a certain way, it was in concert, and yes PC and NPC actions affect how the group will act in the future. Lan, Val, River, and Pok had a boat trip to discuss and hone their strategies, Sheeva and Feall haven't had that yet.
As for if Pok will assist in flanking, yes he will. He doesn't push foes away when it benefits the situation. He has a shield spell, and can become invisible in order to fix the situation. Proven as when he jumped out to save Sheeva. Pok has a suicidal drive to rise in the ranks of House Sivis, and protect his own. Sheeva doesn't have the same style, understandably she attempted to escape.
I was just making discussion, and it was OOC, I don't know how Pok will react to it after he stops being silent.
Not criticizing your action KD, do your thing.
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We agree KD, it was inconvenient for everyone except Sheeva. However, as renau1g said, Tamarand (Who runs with Pok's twin sister Roswyn) would have done something similar. Not criticizing your role play, I'm complaining about what Sheeva did, not what you did.
I never implied KD didn't understand what Pok was doing.
It was the opposite of what Sheeva thought Pok should do, not of what I should do, Sheeva doesn't know who I am.
I'm not criticizing your play, I'm lamenting Sheeva's actions. The group did work a certain way, it was in concert, and yes PC and NPC actions affect how the group will act in the future. Lan, Val, River, and Pok had a boat trip to discuss and hone their strategies, Sheeva and Feall haven't had that yet.
As for if Pok will assist in flanking, yes he will. He doesn't push foes away when it benefits the situation. He has a shield spell, and can become invisible in order to fix the situation. Proven as when he jumped out to save Sheeva. Pok has a suicidal drive to rise in the ranks of House Sivis, and protect his own. Sheeva doesn't have the same style, understandably she attempted to escape.
I was just making discussion, and it was OOC, I don't know how Pok will react to it after he stops being silent.
Not criticizing your action KD, do your thing.
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[sblock=CBN]
Not quite sure why you lament her actions. She put herself out of harms way which in turn allows her to attack (stronger than most of the PCs) unhindered. It frees up River to heal someone else and it harmed the foe in the process. It also allows for her to do ranged multi-foe Bursts in future rounds without provoking OAs.
Sorry, but it seems like a criticism.
The group is only in concert if the situation allows for it. You seem to be implying that the current strategies are somehow inferior to before Sheeva and Feall joined the group. I opine that strategies depend on situation, luck of the dice, and good decision making. Since nobody can control the first two, you must be implying that the new players are making inferior decisions. Sorry, but that does sound like a criticism. Are you telling the rest of us that just because she pushed the foe away to get out of the grab that the group's actions are out of concert??? Sure, Lan would probably do less damage this round, but then again, Sheeva doesn't go down either which results in more damage in future rounds. Pros and Cons. Less PC damage this round, less NPC control/damage and more PC damage in future rounds. Sheeva's in cloth armor (and her cloak is full of fail now as well due to errata). She should never be that close to combat.
Personally, I think Sheeva's action was totally justified, both for herself and for the group as a whole. For example, Feall rushed up to help her. Now, he doesn't have to and has more options. River doesn't need to heal her yet and can do something else. And Sheeva ungrabbed has a lot more options than Sheeva grabbed.
I really don't understand why you (CBN) are complaining about Sheeva's actions at all. Sheeva complaining about Pok's action IC is roleplaying. CBN complaining about Sheeva's action OOC is confusing and derisive. Pok complaining about Sheeva's action IC is roleplaying, but he hasn't done that yet.
Her actions do not warrant OOC complaint anymore than anyone else's do. If she really screws up, then you can complain about it OOC.
IC complaint? Fire away. Roleplaying is always welcome, even if the PCs disagree.
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Maidhc O Casain
Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
[sblock=OOC]Since we seem to be in a 'get to know each other' phase, just a quick rundown of the battle from Feall's perspective, so you guys know why he's doing what he is:
Sheeva says “Stop, the next to attack dies.”
River says “Hold your weapons, they’re controlled but their faith is helping them fight the control.”
Sheeva yells at Val to get out of her mind and says something is controlling him and the ‘Flamists.’
Sheeva asks if Pok is controlled ‘like Val.’
‘Flamists’ trick party and attack.
Pretty much everything else took place either mind-to-mind (thus Feall wasn't privy to it) or OOC.
So to Feall it appears that both Val and the Flamists could be controlled by something (probably the Khyber). Scar has not attacked the party yet, so he may not be controlled. Everyone else in the other group has now attacked a party member, and are either controlled or opponents. Thus Feall sets about protecting his group by exposing opponents and moving them away from other group members to eliminate enemy flanking positions.
He's not used to working in a group (as explained IC to Sheeva previously), and at this point has no way of knowing what the groups previous tactics were (such as Lan needing allies close to his targets).
But, from his current position and now with a living entity adjacent to him, he can Shadow Step to any of the three members of his group to assist, the 'sneaky' member of the other group is exposed (for now), River is no longer flanked, and Feall can attack the tentacles at range if needed. His actions make sense from his perspective, but prob'ly not from that of anyone else except possibly Sheeva.
Seems like we might want to have an IC discussion of abilities and tactics after this fight is over?
[/sblock]
Sheeva says “Stop, the next to attack dies.”
River says “Hold your weapons, they’re controlled but their faith is helping them fight the control.”
Sheeva yells at Val to get out of her mind and says something is controlling him and the ‘Flamists.’
Sheeva asks if Pok is controlled ‘like Val.’
‘Flamists’ trick party and attack.
Pretty much everything else took place either mind-to-mind (thus Feall wasn't privy to it) or OOC.
So to Feall it appears that both Val and the Flamists could be controlled by something (probably the Khyber). Scar has not attacked the party yet, so he may not be controlled. Everyone else in the other group has now attacked a party member, and are either controlled or opponents. Thus Feall sets about protecting his group by exposing opponents and moving them away from other group members to eliminate enemy flanking positions.
He's not used to working in a group (as explained IC to Sheeva previously), and at this point has no way of knowing what the groups previous tactics were (such as Lan needing allies close to his targets).
But, from his current position and now with a living entity adjacent to him, he can Shadow Step to any of the three members of his group to assist, the 'sneaky' member of the other group is exposed (for now), River is no longer flanked, and Feall can attack the tentacles at range if needed. His actions make sense from his perspective, but prob'ly not from that of anyone else except possibly Sheeva.
Seems like we might want to have an IC discussion of abilities and tactics after this fight is over?
[/sblock]
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CaBaNa
First Post
[sblock=CBN]
Not quite sure why you lament her actions. She put herself out of harms way which in turn allows her to attack (stronger than most of the PCs) unhindered. It frees up River to heal someone else and it harmed the foe in the process. It also allows for her to do ranged multi-foe Bursts in future rounds without provoking OAs.
Sorry, but it seems like a criticism.
The group is only in concert if the situation allows for it. You seem to be implying that the current strategies are somehow inferior to before Sheeva and Feall joined the group. I opine that strategies depend on situation, luck of the dice, and good decision making. Since nobody can control the first two, you must be implying that the new players are making inferior decisions. Sorry, but that does sound like a criticism. Are you telling the rest of us that just because she pushed the foe away to get out of the grab that the group's actions are out of concert??? Sure, Lan would probably do less damage this round, but then again, Sheeva doesn't go down either which results in more damage in future rounds. Pros and Cons. Less PC damage this round, less NPC control/damage and more PC damage in future rounds. Sheeva's in cloth armor (and her cloak is full of fail now as well due to errata). She should never be that close to combat.
Personally, I think Sheeva's action was totally justified, both for herself and for the group as a whole. For example, Feall rushed up to help her. Now, he doesn't have to and has more options. River doesn't need to heal her yet and can do something else. And Sheeva ungrabbed has a lot more options than Sheeva grabbed.
I really don't understand why you (CBN) are complaining about Sheeva's actions at all. Sheeva complaining about Pok's action IC is roleplaying. CBN complaining about Sheeva's action OOC is confusing and derisive. Pok complaining about Sheeva's action IC is roleplaying, but he hasn't done that yet.
Her actions do not warrant OOC complaint anymore than anyone else's do. If she really screws up, then you can complain about it OOC.
IC complaint? Fire away. Roleplaying is always welcome, even if the PCs disagree.
[/sblock]
[sblock=OOC]
I was complaining about Sheeva's actions, OOC, as conversation. Not complaining about how KD plays, or what KD chose to do with Sheeva.
Sheeva does not equal KD.
Sheeva, by pushing the tentacled beast away, broke two possible flanks, and dropped Lan's Nova. I'd say that is pretty ineffective for the group, but not for Sheeva.
KD roleplayed what Sheeva would do, applause for not metagaming and for giving your character depth. Sheeva, did it.
There is Zero issue with roleplaying your character well, but I'm still going to discuss what the character did. Good or Bad.
Our current strategies are inferior to what they were, the group isn't working together as a cohesive unit, and they did. The new players (KD and Mowgli) aren't making inferior decisions, their characters just changed the group dynamic. The PC's (Pok, Lan, Riv, Val, Sheeva, Feall) aren't yet able to work together in that same cohesive way. I am criticizing Sheeva, not KD. KD is keeping Sheeva in her role as newcomer to the group, so cohesive strategy is not yet an option for her. KD is doing a good job, but that doesn't change how I (CaBaNa) feel about what Sheeva is doing.
It's not confusing or derisive when you accept that Sheeva does not equal KD. Just ask Kenhood, he runs into this issue often.
For the last time, I am NOT having a problem with KD. if I did it would read, "hey KD I have a problem with how you played that".
Don't be so sensitivite KD, I'm talking about what the characters are doing, it's normal, and it shouldn't have spawned this much issue to begin with.
[/sblock]
[sblock=OOC][sblock=OOC]Since we seem to be in a 'get to know each other' phase, just a quick rundown of the battle from Feall's perspective, so you guys know why he's doing what he is:
Sheeva says “Stop, the next to attack dies.”
River says “Hold your weapons, they’re controlled but their faith is helping them fight the control.”
Sheeva yells at Val to get out of her mind and says something is controlling him and the ‘Flamists.’
Sheeva asks if Pok is controlled ‘like Val.’
‘Flamists’ trick party and attack.
Pretty much everything else took place either mind-to-mind (thus Feall wasn't privy to it) or OOC.
So to Feall it appears that both Val and the Flamists could be controlled by something (probably the Khyber). Scar has not attacked the party yet, so he may not be controlled. Everyone else in the other group has now attacked a party member, and are either controlled or opponents. Thus Feall sets about protecting his group by exposing opponents and moving them away from other group members to eliminate enemy flanking positions.
He's not used to working in a group (as explained IC to Sheeva previously), and at this point has no way of knowing what the groups previous tactics were (such as Lan needing allies close to his targets).
But, from his current position and now with a living entity adjacent to him, he can Shadow Step to any of the three members of his group to assist, the 'sneaky' member of the other group is exposed (for now), River is no longer flanked, and Feall can attack the tentacles at range if needed. His actions make sense from his perspective, but prob'ly not from that of anyone else except possibly Sheeva.
Seems like we might want to have an IC discussion of abilities and tactics after this fight is over?
Thanks for the recap Mowgli, things like that really help to get into character.
The IC transition of the group to a cohesive unit, may or may not happen eventually. Even if the player characters discuss abilities and tactics, they may not agree on the latter. The player characters will do what they will.[/sblock]
[sblock=CBN]
Ineffective?
The flank is minor in the big scheme of things. A 1 in 5 chance of some additional damage and a 4 in 5 chance of no change (with two flankers).
The nova is minor in the big scheme of things. An additional 10 or 15 points of damage if it hit. You're acting as if the battle will be won if Lan pulls this off.
What Sheeva did was good for the group. If 6 PCs can do actions (including 2 strikers), it is much better than if 5 PCs (and only 1 striker) can do actions. Sheeva created a front line against the toughest looking foe and that's always better than having powerful foes in the back ranks. Tactics 101.
Sorry pal, but your logic is flawed and mistaken.
You are focused on old tactics that may or may not work well with the group as a whole and are intent on your vision of good battle tactics as being the only good ones. The team is no longer comprised of the same team members as before, so tactics are dependent on the current group and the current situation, not the old group and old situations.
What Sheeva did was better for the group than a dozen extra points of damage from Lan.
Complain all you want, but realize that nobody else is complaining about anyone else's action OOC. Only you. Why is that? Nobody else is claiming that the old group tactics are superior than ones people are currently using. Only you. Why is that? Nobody else is claiming that the group isn't working together as a cohesive unit. Only you. Why is that?
So far, the enemies have dished out ~35 points of damage whereas the PCs have dished out ~70 points of damage. The PCs are not bloodied yet and River has not yet healed anyone. I'd say that we are doing just fine considering that we yet again got attacked in the back ranks in round one, regardless of your opinion of how crappy we are doing.
What's your deal here? What are you trying to prove and why? You appear to be complaining just to complain without much to back up your POV other than the fact that we MIGHT have been able to do about a dozen extra points of damage if your plan would have worked. Err, so what???
If Lan would have not pulled the beast closer and forced it to use its own movement to get back into the fight for a round (and possibly losing an attack action due to the difficult terrain of the stairs) and forced the same on the Tiefling, the team could have moved towards the Flamists near River and tried to knock them unconcious and we could have increased the action economy of PCs vs. NPCs. Lan could have nova-ed against Bow 3 and knocked him out. Am I complaining that Lan didn't do that, even though that might have been a better course of action (i.e. fewer foes are better than more foes). Nope. Lan did what he did. He was focused on the beast. That's fine. I'm sure as heck not going to complain about his actions and call them ineffective, even though there might have been a different and possibly better alternative. There are almost always better alternatives than the ones people pick, but why would anyone complain about it?
So, why are you complaining about Sheeva's actions and calling them ineffective for the group? Why do you think that your plans are the best for the group???
Your tactic was one of several possible tactics. Better than some, worse than others. As was Sheeva's. As was Lan's. As was each person's. I'm not quite sure why you think your tactic was so wonderful. The monster might have 150 hit points. An additional 12 could be small potatoes compared to the tactic of decreasing the number of Flamists attacking us, even if their attacks are weaker than normal. Their attacks have done more than half of the damage against us so far, so maybe we should concentrate on them.
I know Sheeva might be doing that, just to give us an edge in numbers.
Call it ineffective if you want.
[/sblock]
CaBaNa
First Post
[sblock=OOC]
You've found me out! I was just having conversation, it wasn't meant to be blown up any larger than that. I've got nothing to prove, and very little outside of the realm of opinion.
It is normal to talk about what the characters are doing OOC, and it's not offensive unless you make it so.
Admit that you took me to say "KD has had a hard time understanding how the group works", when I didn't. I never insulted your understanding of tactics, nor did I imply an insult to your understanding.
I said a single sentence, about your characters actions, and suddenly you're taking it that I'm insulting you and everything you stand for. Cut it out, stop being so sensitive, and move on.
The second sentence in my post is how Pok lacks communication skills, and is failing to give Sheeva reason to trust the "team".
I like you KD, can't say it any clearer. You've got a good handle on the rules, and are willing to suspend metagame tactics for roleplay. Let's just move on?
EDIT: I think Val is up, followed by Pok.
[/sblock]
You've found me out!
I was just having conversation, it wasn't meant to be blown up any larger than that. I've got nothing to prove, and very little outside of the realm of opinion. It is normal to talk about what the characters are doing OOC, and it's not offensive unless you make it so.
Admit that you took me to say "KD has had a hard time understanding how the group works", when I didn't. I never insulted your understanding of tactics, nor did I imply an insult to your understanding.
I said a single sentence, about your characters actions, and suddenly you're taking it that I'm insulting you and everything you stand for. Cut it out, stop being so sensitive, and move on.
The second sentence in my post is how Pok lacks communication skills, and is failing to give Sheeva reason to trust the "team".
I like you KD, can't say it any clearer. You've got a good handle on the rules, and are willing to suspend metagame tactics for roleplay. Let's just move on?
EDIT: I think Val is up, followed by Pok.
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