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"SPACE FIGHT!" Starship combat boardgame

- Aura damage must apply at the very start of the turn prior to actions or movement
So you mean you think that if you move into an aura on your turn, you shouldn't take damage? Which means that if a bomber can go all the way through the aura zone, over the target ship, and out the other end in one turn it shouldn't take any damage? Interesting. What problems did the current way cause?

- Launched fighters placed next to carrier immediately, but should not act at all until next round
That makes sense. Probably the best way to do that would be to say that the fighters get placed immediately *before* the carrier in initiative order (so you have to go all the way around before you get to the fighters.) Another advantage of that is that it means the initiative order doesn't keep getting more and more complicated.

- There should be a +2 bonus to hit a stationary ship
Of course, then everyone would just move at speed 1 if they didn't really want to move much. But I don't see any harm from this rule change.

Fighters are way too powerful - impossible to hit. Adjustments to hit probabilities needed. Adding agility to attack rolls seesm to work perfectly.
Interesting. It still seems like capital ships would have a very hard time hitting fighters with anything except auras.

- Heroes in their current form have no effect on the game whatsoever.
Why did this happen? Was it too hard to get the heroes onto the ships they needed to affect? Were the heroes' powers not powerful enough? Were the heroes too easy to get rid of by hero removal effects or by being blown up?

Maybe one thing that might make it work better is to get rid of the whole "heroes having turns" thing and just give them (beefed up) passive abilities. For example:
Bold Captain - +3 to all attack rolls
Legendary Engineer - Repair rolls auto-succeed
Plucky Pilot - +4 defense and attack rolls on Medium or smaller ships

and so on.

It might help to know what factions you were playing with and what kind of heroes you were using. The heroes seems to be of highly varying levels of power.

- The biggest issue: user interface. How to record all the info? Small speed counters on the ships created a horribly messy and cluttered game map, especially with lots of fighters. Tracking HP and shields and readied actions and sensor locks all gets messy and players forget things a LOT. Need a really good user interface for all this stuff.
Let's compare this game with D+D, which we've all had experience keeping track of. HP is just like in D+D, and shields are mechanically the same as temporary hit points (where activating shields is the power that gives you the temporary hit points).

As for speed counters - one idea would be to get rid of the whole thrust/speed mechanic altogether and just say each ship has a top speed, and they can move up to that speed each turn.

Readied actions are one thing that's more complicated (and often tend to cause problems even in D+D). Maybe one way of stopping lots of readied actions is to change some of the mechanics that tend to require readied actions. The main times it seems like readied actions would come into play is as follows:

1. Taking a fighter out as it launches from a carrier. In the current system this requires a readied action because if the enemy fighter rolls initiative and lands in between the enemy carrier and your ship, it will get to act before you. But if you use my idea then that won't be a problem because the fighter has to wait the full time around before it can act.

2. Manipulating shield timing. For example suppose I have two ships A and B, the opponent has ship X, the initiative order is X, A, B. Suppose that X has a 10 HP/round shield, and A and B each have a 10 damage weapon. If A misses then it's useless for B to fire because even if it hits it will get absorbed and the shield will go up to full next round. But if B readies until after X goes, then I'll get 3 shots total at him in one shield cycle. I'll talk about alternative shield systems in my next post.

3. Killing an enemy that moves into my range and then moves out in one turn. If you use the movement idea I mentioned above it might be harder to go really fast and thus less reason to use this.

Sensor locks are also a harder thing to keep track of because it's a "binary relation" - i.e. it's not a property of one ship (like HP or speed) it's a relation between two ships (A has a sensor lock on B). So if you put the counter or mark on A, for example, the counter has to say "has a sensor lock on B" and thus have a way of identifying B. One way to fix this is to effectively give all ships the Colonial Support Vessel's power of giving their friends sensor lock benefits - so you just have to mark ship B as "sensor locked" and don't have to worry about which of side A's ships marked it. Thematically you can assume that all the ships are transmitting sensor data to each other, so even if something happens to one ship's sensors the other ships can "pick up the trail." Then you could also have ways that a ship can "shake off" the sensor lock. The idea of "a particular ship focusing all its sensor resources to target one thing" could be modeled by the "spend APs to get attack bonuses" idea that you had mentioned before.
As for the "lots of fighters" issue - if there are lots of fighters we'll need to keep them simple. Some of the ideas I've put up above help in that direction, but it might be worth having some special rules or design guidelines just for fighters to keep them simple. For example, say that the only systems they have are weapons - that way the only thing you'll ever need to keep track of is hit points on them, and don't give them any of the things that make it harder to keep track of, like shields or special powers.

Also, IIRC, there already exists a collectible miniatures game that simulates Star Wars space battles (I think it was by WotC, I don't know - I saw it in a game store once and don't remember anything else about it). If you can find that it might be worth looking in it for ideas.

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And by the way, did boarding combat every get used during your playtest and if so, how did it go? My impression on reading the boarding combat rules is that it gives significant advantage to the defender, because the defender gets to attack with all of their combat units as soon as the attackers come on board, while the attacker usually has to get combat units on one at a time - and unlike with just blasting the ship to bits (where each step down the damage track gives progressive effects) with boarding combat there's no negative effect until the ship is captured.
 

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Also, I was going to give my ideas for shields. Here is an idea:

- You have "shield points." The shield points should be a significant fraction of total hit points. For example, a Federation Heavy Cruiser (100 HP) might have 75 shield points.

- The shield also has a "deflection rating" which is how much damage it can deflect off of each attack. Let's say the deflection rating is 5, then it can deflect 5 hit points out of each attack. This means that if the attack does 8 points of damage, then 3 of that is taken off hit points, and 5 is taken off shield points.

- There's also a "recharge rate." This is the number of shield points you get back each time you spend AP on the shields on your turn. Some ships might have a "full power to shields" option or something that lets you get, say, double the recharge at a cost of 3 times the APs.

This does make the stats for each ship more complicated, because the shields need to have 3 stats (max shield points, deflection rating, recharge rate). However it also handles the "shields down to 30%" idea better (the way you have it now, the shields go up to 100% every turn, then go down when the other ship attacks, then go up to 100% again, which I don't recall ever seeing on Star Trek, although I confess I only watched Voyager). It also avoids all the weird timing tricks that the current system invites, and still requires only one variable to keep track of.

As for sectional shields, it seems like the best way to do that would be to not have it be "default", and just have it be a special option (say, spend extra AP to double the deflection rating on one side for a turn). The problem with forcing players to choose shield arcs every turn is:

(1) As stated before, it makes the game more complicated, and means more to keep track of.
(2) It gives yet another advantage to fighters and other maneuverable ships, because they can see which shield arcs their target powered up, and then maneuver on an unshielded part. To defend against this, the target could ready an action to power up the shields after seeing where the fighters moved to, but that makes the game move slower (I move here, do you want to power up shields? Okay, I turn then move one more hex, how about now? How about now?)
(3) It also means more to figure out each turn. "Okay, the bad guy is moving at speed 3 and has thrust 4, so he can go 7 next turn ... let me count hexes to see if that's enough to get on to my side so I'll have to power up the side shields, and if not then how I can maneuver to force him to attack the shield arc I want him to attack next turn."
(4) It's more thematic. I don't recall Captain Janeway giving the order to "power up front and left shield arcs - oh wait, the Klingon on the left moved on back, power up front and back now - I think there's another Klingon cloaked so let's ready an action to power up whichever shield arc he decloaks from." Usually things like "Maximum power to forward shields!" are special orders given in specific situations, and shield arcs aren't something they have to worry about in every single fight.
 

I was the other half of the play test with Russ the other day. He has covered most of what we found, but didn't say why Heroes didn't work.

In the fight he had two capital ships, one of which had a legendary engineer and a bold captain, meaning that that ship could make four rolls a round at +2 to repair, repairing 12 points a time. The other capital ship could make one roll at +0 for 10 points. So i ignored the first and threw everything at the second. It wasn't that the heroes had no effect, but the effect was to make that ship unattackable (as i saw it).

On my side i had a fighter squadron leader. The squadron moved on its inititiative and attacked. The target ship moved off. THe squadron leader then got to blast empty space a bit on his turn. Russ and I agreed that for most things it would work better if the hero acted on the initiative of the ship he was on.

Generally the battle (Galactica vs Enterprse and friends) felt very good thematically and the ships acted much as they should do from the screen. tbc
 

So you mean you think that if you move into an aura on your turn, you shouldn't take damage? Which means that if a bomber can go all the way through the aura zone, over the target ship, and out the other end in one turn it shouldn't take any damage? Interesting. What problems did the current way cause?

Sorry, I slightly mispoke myself there. What I meant to say was that the "when beginning its turn" part of the aura effect should be made clear to mean that it's right at the beginning before anything else is done.

That makes sense. Probably the best way to do that would be to say that the fighters get placed immediately *before* the carrier in initiative order (so you have to go all the way around before you get to the fighters.) Another advantage of that is that it means the initiative order doesn't keep getting more and more complicated.

I think sticking them randomly in the next round worked, but we're going to run the same fight a few more times to be sure.

Of course, then everyone would just move at speed 1 if they didn't really want to move much. But I don't see any harm from this rule change.

Sure. It's partly thematic ("sitting duck"), and partly to keep the game moving a little since completely stationary capital ships proved to be a bit boring.

Interesting. It still seems like capital ships would have a very hard time hitting fighters with anything except auras.

They'll find it a tiny bit easier, but fighter vs. fighter is where that'll really shine. It'll also increase the attrition rate of fighter squadrons quite a bit, keeping the number of counters down.

I'm thinking of revising the auro rules anyway. While they worked just fine, autodamage proved to simply not be much fun for the players involved. I may make it 4 attacks with a substantial bonus to hit squadrons.

Why did this happen? Was it too hard to get the heroes onto the ships they needed to affect? Were the heroes' powers not powerful enough? Were the heroes too easy to get rid of by hero removal effects or by being blown up?

Maybe one thing that might make it work better is to get rid of the whole "heroes having turns" thing and just give them (beefed up) passive abilities. For example:
Bold Captain - +3 to all attack rolls
Legendary Engineer - Repair rolls auto-succeed
Plucky Pilot - +4 defense and attack rolls on Medium or smaller ships

and so on.

Doug (above) pretty much summed it up, but yes, I'm inclined to agree that passive bonuses are the way forward there.


As for speed counters - one idea would be to get rid of the whole thrust/speed mechanic altogether and just say each ship has a top speed, and they can move up to that speed each turn.

We were pretty much in agreement that - should we solve the interface issue - the thrust/speed/agility mechanic worked really well and created exactly the type of movement from different ship types that we wanted. Fighters were swopping round fast in large arcs, etc., while capital ships were plodding aong, and the aesthetic of that was very appealing.

Readied actions are one thing that's more complicated (and often tend to cause problems even in D+D). Maybe one way of stopping lots of readied actions is to change some of the mechanics that tend to require readied actions. The main times it seems like readied actions would come into play is as follows:

1. Taking a fighter out as it launches from a carrier. In the current system this requires a readied action because if the enemy fighter rolls initiative and lands in between the enemy carrier and your ship, it will get to act before you. But if you use my idea then that won't be a problem because the fighter has to wait the full time around before it can act.

2. Manipulating shield timing. For example suppose I have two ships A and B, the opponent has ship X, the initiative order is X, A, B. Suppose that X has a 10 HP/round shield, and A and B each have a 10 damage weapon. If A misses then it's useless for B to fire because even if it hits it will get absorbed and the shield will go up to full next round. But if B readies until after X goes, then I'll get 3 shots total at him in one shield cycle. I'll talk about alternative shield systems in my next post.

3. Killing an enemy that moves into my range and then moves out in one turn. If you use the movement idea I mentioned above it might be harder to go really fast and thus less reason to use this.

Yeah. Basically I think my issue (I didn't actually talk to Doug about this one, so I don't know how he felt) was that there were just too many readied actions. I viewed them as being an occasional thing, and it turned out to be the standard.


Sensor locks are also a harder thing to keep track of because it's a "binary relation" - i.e. it's not a property of one ship (like HP or speed) it's a relation between two ships (A has a sensor lock on B). So if you put the counter or mark on A, for example, the counter has to say "has a sensor lock on B" and thus have a way of identifying B.

I think I've solved this one with an easy fix - simply use coloured counters. Now I'm experimenting with magnetic printer paper, I think this issue is simply going to solve itself.

As for the "lots of fighters" issue - if there are lots of fighters we'll need to keep them simple. Some of the ideas I've put up above help in that direction, but it might be worth having some special rules or design guidelines just for fighters to keep them simple. For example, say that the only systems they have are weapons - that way the only thing you'll ever need to keep track of is hit points on them, and don't give them any of the things that make it harder to keep track of, like shields or special powers.

One thing I thought of was maybe some kind of command/control limit on the capital ships. So a Colonial Battleship can provide C&C bonuses to a certain number of squadrons at a time, or something. Not sure what would happen if it exceeded those thought - needs an encouragement to keep it down to X at a time.

And by the way, did boarding combat every get used during your playtest and if so, how did it go? My impression on reading the boarding combat rules is that it gives significant advantage to the defender, because the defender gets to attack with all of their combat units as soon as the attackers come on board, while the attacker usually has to get combat units on one at a time - and unlike with just blasting the ship to bits (where each step down the damage track gives progressive effects) with boarding combat there's no negative effect until the ship is captured.

You've nailed the problem exactly. I wanted to use the Federation transporters to board the Colonial vessel, but there seemed no point - I'd get a unit or two on board, and it'd get wiped out. This at the expense of lowering my shields, which I was loathe to do (which was good, I guess - because transporters could potentially be a very powerful ability).

On the other side, the Colonial Support Vessel was just unable to close and board a larger ship. First, the shields were always up; second, it was easy for a Federation ship to swat the CSV out of the sky like a gnat.

I'm wondering if - in the latter case at least - some sort of fighter escort/cover rule could help with that, allowing the CSV some protection while it did its thing. Or, I guess, the CSV could just be made tougher.
 

Also, I was going to give my ideas for shields. Here is an idea:

- You have "shield points." The shield points should be a significant fraction of total hit points. For example, a Federation Heavy Cruiser (100 HP) might have 75 shield points.

- The shield also has a "deflection rating" which is how much damage it can deflect off of each attack. Let's say the deflection rating is 5, then it can deflect 5 hit points out of each attack. This means that if the attack does 8 points of damage, then 3 of that is taken off hit points, and 5 is taken off shield points.

- There's also a "recharge rate." This is the number of shield points you get back each time you spend AP on the shields on your turn. Some ships might have a "full power to shields" option or something that lets you get, say, double the recharge at a cost of 3 times the APs.

This does make the stats for each ship more complicated, because the shields need to have 3 stats (max shield points, deflection rating, recharge rate). However it also handles the "shields down to 30%" idea better (the way you have it now, the shields go up to 100% every turn, then go down when the other ship attacks, then go up to 100% again, which I don't recall ever seeing on Star Trek, although I confess I only watched Voyager). It also avoids all the weird timing tricks that the current system invites, and still requires only one variable to keep track of.

As for sectional shields, it seems like the best way to do that would be to not have it be "default", and just have it be a special option (say, spend extra AP to double the deflection rating on one side for a turn). The problem with forcing players to choose shield arcs every turn is:

(1) As stated before, it makes the game more complicated, and means more to keep track of.
(2) It gives yet another advantage to fighters and other maneuverable ships, because they can see which shield arcs their target powered up, and then maneuver on an unshielded part. To defend against this, the target could ready an action to power up the shields after seeing where the fighters moved to, but that makes the game move slower (I move here, do you want to power up shields? Okay, I turn then move one more hex, how about now? How about now?)
(3) It also means more to figure out each turn. "Okay, the bad guy is moving at speed 3 and has thrust 4, so he can go 7 next turn ... let me count hexes to see if that's enough to get on to my side so I'll have to power up the side shields, and if not then how I can maneuver to force him to attack the shield arc I want him to attack next turn."
(4) It's more thematic. I don't recall Captain Janeway giving the order to "power up front and left shield arcs - oh wait, the Klingon on the left moved on back, power up front and back now - I think there's another Klingon cloaked so let's ready an action to power up whichever shield arc he decloaks from." Usually things like "Maximum power to forward shields!" are special orders given in specific situations, and shield arcs aren't something they have to worry about in every single fight.

The directional shields came about through conversatons with another playtester. They're a common feature of games because they encourage maneuvering - ships trying to keep their shielded side towards the enemy, and the enemy trying to maneuver to attack unshielded sides. It adds an extra tactical element to the game.

But yes, it's slightly awkward. I like your idea; shields power all around, with a option to divert extra power to just one shield. If we reduce the readied action stuff somehow, then that would hopefully avoid the scenario you're describing.
 

So, to summarise (largely repeating what we've been saying above):
  • Shields have an overall Shield Points total. When shield points reach zero, shields go down.
  • Shields have a Rating which tells you how much damage they absorb from each attack.
  • When hit, damage equal to the Rating is applied to Shields Points and the remainder damages the vessel as normal.
  • Recovering Shield Points requires an action.
  • Some ships can divert power to one specific shield as an action. This increases its Rating for that round.
The thing I'm not keen on with the above is that there's one Shield Point difference between shields being fully functional and being down. I wonder if a scaled rating is a better idea - when you have 30% of your Shield Points, you only have 30% of your Shield Rating (but simplified, more like the damage track).
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex319
Also, I was going to give my ideas for shields. Here is an idea:

- You have "shield points." The shield points should be a significant fraction of total hit points. For example, a Federation Heavy Cruiser (100 HP) might have 75 shield points.

- The shield also has a "deflection rating" which is how much damage it can deflect off of each attack. Let's say the deflection rating is 5, then it can deflect 5 hit points out of each attack. This means that if the attack does 8 points of damage, then 3 of that is taken off hit points, and 5 is taken off shield points.

- There's also a "recharge rate." This is the number of shield points you get back each time you spend AP on the shields on your turn. Some ships might have a "full power to shields" option or something that lets you get, say, double the recharge at a cost of 3 times the APs.

This does make the stats for each ship more complicated, because the shields need to have 3 stats (max shield points, deflection rating, recharge rate). However it also handles the "shields down to 30%" idea better (the way you have it now, the shields go up to 100% every turn, then go down when the other ship attacks, then go up to 100% again, which I don't recall ever seeing on Star Trek, although I confess I only watched Voyager). It also avoids all the weird timing tricks that the current system invites, and still requires only one variable to keep track of.

As for sectional shields, it seems like the best way to do that would be to not have it be "default", and just have it be a special option (say, spend extra AP to double the deflection rating on one side for a turn). The problem with forcing players to choose shield arcs every turn is:

(1) As stated before, it makes the game more complicated, and means more to keep track of.
(2) It gives yet another advantage to fighters and other maneuverable ships, because they can see which shield arcs their target powered up, and then maneuver on an unshielded part. To defend against this, the target could ready an action to power up the shields after seeing where the fighters moved to, but that makes the game move slower (I move here, do you want to power up shields? Okay, I turn then move one more hex, how about now? How about now?)
(3) It also means more to figure out each turn. "Okay, the bad guy is moving at speed 3 and has thrust 4, so he can go 7 next turn ... let me count hexes to see if that's enough to get on to my side so I'll have to power up the side shields, and if not then how I can maneuver to force him to attack the shield arc I want him to attack next turn."
(4) It's more thematic. I don't recall Captain Janeway giving the order to "power up front and left shield arcs - oh wait, the Klingon on the left moved on back, power up front and back now - I think there's another Klingon cloaked so let's ready an action to power up whichever shield arc he decloaks from." Usually things like "Maximum power to forward shields!" are special orders given in specific situations, and shield arcs aren't something they have to worry about in every single fight.


The directional shields came about through conversatons with another playtester. They're a common feature of games because they encourage maneuvering - ships trying to keep their shielded side towards the enemy, and the enemy trying to maneuver to attack unshielded sides. It adds an extra tactical element to the game.

There are still ways to do this that don't involve choosing new shield arcs every time. For example, directional defense bonuses, or some ships having one shield arc that's just always more powerful than another (i.e. you don't have to decide each turn which ones should be powered up).


I wonder if a scaled rating is a better idea - when you have 30% of your Shield Points, you only have 30% of your Shield Rating (but simplified, more like the damage track).

That might work, although you do have to be careful about the math to make sure that you don't end up with it being impossible to take a shield completely down because as you hit the shield more, it starts absorbing less from each attack, so it goes down slower.
 

I was the other half of the play test with Russ the other day. He has covered most of what we found, but didn't say why Heroes didn't work.

In the fight he had two capital ships, one of which had a legendary engineer and a bold captain, meaning that that ship could make four rolls a round at +2 to repair, repairing 12 points a time. The other capital ship could make one roll at +0 for 10 points. So i ignored the first and threw everything at the second. It wasn't that the heroes had no effect, but the effect was to make that ship unattackable (as i saw it).
It sounds there like the problem wasn't that the heroes were too weak; it was that they were too strong. If I were the Federation player in this situation, I would have kept teleporting the heroes over to whichever ship needed repairs most.

On my side i had a fighter squadron leader. The squadron moved on its inititiative and attacked. The target ship moved off. THe squadron leader then got to blast empty space a bit on his turn. Russ and I agreed that for most things it would work better if the hero acted on the initiative of the ship he was on.
At least the way I'm reading the rule book, it says the SL gives his squadron extra action points, which would presumably apply extra AP on the squadron's turn (since that's when the squadron gets AP).

You've nailed the problem exactly. I wanted to use the Federation transporters to board the Colonial vessel, but there seemed no point - I'd get a unit or two on board, and it'd get wiped out. This at the expense of lowering my shields, which I was loathe to do (which was good, I guess - because transporters could potentially be a very powerful ability).
A while ago I made the suggestion of having a system where defending forces have to spend AP to attack boarding parties. Then a boarding unit on an enemy ship could reduce its effectiveness even if they couldn't capture it - because the defenders would have to spend AP to fight them off.

On the other side, the Colonial Support Vessel was just unable to close and board a larger ship. First, the shields were always up; second, it was easy for a Federation ship to swat the CSV out of the sky like a gnat.
The rules don't say anything about shields blocking breach abilities; just that they block transporters.

By the way, if I were the Colonial player and I had a CSV, I would have spent a hero point on a Plucky Pilot, put him in the CSV, then launch out, fly near the enemy while activating ECM all the time. I would be at effective defense 22 with evasive maneuvers (evasive maneuvers doesn't prevent ECM, so I could just use it all the time) and they couldn't get a sensor lock, so they could only hit me on a natural 20 and I could jam their sensors with impunity.
 

It sounds there like the problem wasn't that the heroes were too weak; it was that they were too strong. If I were the Federation player in this situation, I would have kept teleporting the heroes over to whichever ship needed repairs most.

Teleporting would have required me to lower my shields. I was too scared to do that!

At least the way I'm reading the rule book, it says the SL gives his squadron extra action points, which would presumably apply extra AP on the squadron's turn (since that's when the squadron gets AP).

Probably just a flat AP bonus would work best.

A while ago I made the suggestion of having a system where defending forces have to spend AP to attack boarding parties. Then a boarding unit on an enemy ship could reduce its effectiveness even if they couldn't capture it - because the defenders would have to spend AP to fight them off.

That's an idea. Although you the end up in the weird situation where one ship's troops act for free (because they're on an enemy ship) while the other vessel's troops are paying in AP to defend.

The rules don't say anything about shields blocking breach abilities; just that they block transporters.

Ah, OK I must have overlooked that. I meant to include breaching also. I could've sworn that was in there! We certainly played that rule.

Anyway, here's my rough idea for a shield interface. Needs something added to mark an "intensified" toggle for specific shield arcs, but it gives a rough idea of how I'm imagining it. You cross of the shield points (from the right first, and as you move into each new box the shield rating goes down). Shield damage will slow down towards the bottom end, which is OK I think.

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I refuse to say "can't be done"! I'm going to try my darndest!

LOL, good luck. However you end up dealing with it, I'm sure you'll have a tough balancing act.

Edit: IRT shields - is each line of boxes one arc? If so, could you just put a little circle at the right-hand end for "intensified"?

If not, how do you intend to distinguish arcs from each other?
 
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