Archivist - Cleric help

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ya see? I told you it wouldn't take long for someone to poo poo multi-classing spellcasters. Good news is you can take the Practiced Spellcaster feat and regain those caster levels.

I'm with you, Herobizkit. There are no absolutes in PC design except you absolutely should make the PCs' mechanical aspects mesh with the concept you have floating in your head.

So MC if you want to!

I also completely forgot about the Monk idea mentioned earlier. Three levels of Monk and you're 100% win for upping the martial aspects of your character, especially if your DM allows you a feat to let you use polearms as monk weapons (and can therefore flurry with reach).

The polearm feats in question are to be found in DCv1 and Secrets of Sarlona.

And having played 2 of them, yes, polearm monks flurrying with reach is loads of fun!

 

[concerro]

Ya see? I told you it wouldn't take long for someone to poo poo multi-classing spellcasters. Good news is you can take the Practiced Spellcaster feat and regain those caster levels.

I also completely forgot about the Monk idea mentioned earlier. Three levels of Monk and you're 100% win for upping the martial aspects of your character, especially if your DM allows you a feat to let you use polearms as monk weapons (and can therefore flurry with reach).

Practiced spellcaster does not replace the spell(s) lost due to multiclassing. It only gives you caster levels for the purpose of determining how good a spell is. As an example if you have a monk3/cleric7 with practiced spellcaster and you cast a cure spell you will do Xd6+10 instead of xd6+7.

The monk idea is a bad one. Archivist have poor BAB, and monks have medium BAB. His chances to hit anything are going to be very bad. Melee combat is not where an archivist wants to be.

 

[Herobizkit]

Practiced spellcaster does not replace the spell(s) lost due to multiclassing. It only gives you caster levels for the purpose of determining how good a spell is.

True. The OP is not worried about spell slots, as the only reason he's even considering MC is to get his domain powers. His plan called for only one level of priest; mine called for 3 with an effective level of (eventually) 7. As for his Archivist spells, well... he gains some flexibility in going 3 levels of priest, which is the whole point of MC.

The monk idea is a bad one. Archivist have poor BAB, and monks have medium BAB. His chances to hit anything are going to be very bad. Melee combat is not where an archivist wants to be.

Maybe not, but the OP wanted options to compensate for his poor BAB. Chances are good that the OP's PC will have high Dex (at least 15+), so one Weapon Finesse feat and he's suddenly got +3 or +4 to his melee AND ranged BAB. Add in a Flurry at no penalty (thanks to Monk/3), and his Monk 3/Arch 1 will have what... two attacks/round and +3 or +4 to hit with everything. That's about par with the BAB of a Warrior of the same level. Not bad for Mr. Passive Resistance.

Of course, 2 levels of Fighter will Do It Better, but Monks get neater special abilities - Evasion, +10 movement, and Combat Reflexes + high Dex + reach weapon = awesome.

 

[Nifft]

The monk idea is a bad one. Archivist have poor BAB, and monks have medium BAB. His chances to hit anything are going to be very bad. Melee combat is not where an archivist wants to be.

Archivists, like Clerics, have the best BAB in the game (once they can cast 4th level spells).

Your main class feature is your spells. It's either the best or the second best set of class features in the game, and it's certainly the most flexible.

Don't trade that power and flexibility for ... well, for nothing in return, really. Instead, look at how you can use your spell list to get the class features you want.

If you want to hang back and provide support from the rear line: take a [Reserve] feat which allows you to make ranged (Su) attacks at will.

If you want to help out in the front lines: take buff spells that last for an encounter, or take a [Reserve] feat that allows you to make close-up (Su) attacks at will.

If you want to be a skill monkey: take buff spells that allow you to act like a skill monkey. (E.g.: "Oh, you have ranks in Hide and Move Silently? That's nice, I'll just cast Invisibility and Silence. Yeah, I got Invisibility from the Trickery Domain. Pretty sweet, huh?")

The best part is: if one day you need to be a utility-monkey, and the next day you need to be loaded for owlbear, you can do both just by switching around which spells you prepare. That flexibility is amazing, and it's something you shouldn't trade for an illusory advantage -- that is, for an ability you could replicate using one of your spells.

Cheers, -- N

 

[concerro]

Archivists, like Clerics, have the best BAB in the game (once they can cast 4th level spells).

Your main class feature is your spells. It's either the best or the second best set of class features in the game, and it's certainly the most flexible.

Don't trade that power and flexibility for ... well, for nothing in return, really. Instead, look at how you can use your spell list to get the class features you want.

I forgot all the cleric spells still stack in 3.5. I have been playing pathfinder recently, but yeah if he wants BAB don't multi-class, just cast a spell.
He can renew that spell everyday, but character levels are forever.

 

[Herobizkit]

Archivists, like Clerics, have the best BAB in the game (once they can cast 4th level spells).

... yeah, for a few rounds a day, and that's of course prvoided that the Archivist actually GETS the spells they want. If I'm understanding the class as is, the Archivist learns Divine spells as wizards do, but they don't automatically get spells each time they level.

Your main class feature is your spells.

With respect ('cuz it's you, Nifft ), the Archvist's main schtick is its Knowledge skills and buffs that result from them. In this case, the spells are the icing, kinda like the Bard.

Personally, I'd rather have a decent BAB all day and buff THAT then rely on my few-times-a-day spells to do it for me. I'm sure it's a matter of playstyle, though.

Otherwise, yeah, spells are fantastic.

 

[Nifft]

... yeah, for a few rounds a day, and that's of course prvoided that the Archivist actually GETS the spells they want. If I'm understanding the class as is, the Archivist learns Divine spells as wizards do, but they don't automatically get spells each time they level.

They do automatically get Cleric spells. The non-automatic part is Domain spells: they have to buy those as scrolls (or find someone to collaborate with them making a scroll) and scribe those into their prayerbook separately.

(Also, a big fight only lasts a few rounds per day )

With respect ('cuz it's you, Nifft ), the Archvist's main schtick is its Knowledge skills and buffs that result from them. In this case, the spells are the icing, kinda like the Bard.

Wizards could claim the same Knowledge shtick, but their payoff is also mostly in spells. At least Archivists have some direct uses for their various Knowledge skills, so you're rewarded for spending those points for in-character skills.

But IMHO the spells are still most of the class's power. The only Cleric trick that he's lacking is Divine Metamagic cheese -- but that's cheese, so it's not a bad thing to lack -- and unlimited Domain spell access goes a very long way to compensate.

Cheers, -- N

 

[paqqy]

Wow! Lots of info. I should mention a few things...

1) My character is more of a skill monkey and his main role in the party is to be the Know-it-all Librarian. He uses this Intelligence to get the party through odd situations as well as informing them of their opponents' weakneses. When not being Intelligent, he is buffing the party.

2) The main reason I am considering taking a level is because the DM suggested it. Because of the circumstances under which I am going to be introduced, there is a backstory that we're working with. PC had life. PC found himself in precarious circumstances. PC was saved. PC was strongly urged to work for the organization that saved him. So the character clearly had a life before becoming an Archivist for this organization...

So really, I am trying to find a way to make this work. I could do it without MC-ing, but the MC helps with that history. Since my character is 40+, it seems odd that he would just start from nothing going right into being an archivist.

With that said, the best I could do was the cloistered cleric, which gives me so many skill points from the beginning that I can max out all my knowledge ranks and get to 5 ranks in each Knowledge Skill by 2nd level. Free Knowledge Devotion that I can get by trading away the Knowledge Domain at 2nd lvl. Ability to use wands/staffs as a wiz (Magic domain), some CHA-skill bonuses (Mind domain). (I am tossing the Nibility domain for now)

EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget turning + Divine Metamagic!

3) I care about spellcasting. But I'm ok with being a level behind as if I was a favoured soul or sorcerer. However, being 3 levels behind is somewhat a turn-off for me, considering that I might start at 3rd and should already be an archivist when I start the campaign. Also, I tend to focus my character designs on the middle. We tend to spend much more time in the middle levels than at the beginning and late levels. I might ask my DM, if I take the CC level, if he would allow me to give-up the ability to cast 1st level spells to be cast from the prayer book as if my 1st divine-caster level were Archivist.

4) I don't need to be optimized, but I would like to be as coherent a character as possible... meaning that to me, having a character that is internally consistent is most important.

Anyway, I like the discussion. I think I'm no closer to figuring this out.

 

[Nifft]

If you're starting out with a level of Cloistered Cleric, why not just stay as a Cloistered Cleric? It's got basically the same feel as an Archivist, with all the Knowledge skills and the Domain.

Personally, I would not trade out a domain for a feat. Feats are cheap. Domains are expensive.

If you're worried about your firepower, take a Domain that gives you some offensive spells, like Fire. This combos very well with the Fiery Burst [Reserve] feat -- just save your highest-level Domain slot for the Fire domain spell, and you can attack all day starting at 3rd level, which leaves all your other slots open for healing the party, buffing the party, clever utility spells, or whatever.

Cheers, -- N

 

[paqqy]

If you're starting out with a level of Cloistered Cleric, why not just stay as a Cloistered Cleric? It's got basically the same feel as an Archivist, with all the Knowledge skills and the Domain.

I prefer the ability to use my knowledge skills to give the party bonuses with the spells as backup. The party already has a cleric and a mage, so my role is purely supportive...

If you're worried about your firepower, take a Domain that gives you some offensive spells, like Fire. This combos very well with the Fiery Burst [Reserve] feat -- just save your highest-level Domain slot for the Fire domain spell, and you can attack all day starting at 3rd level, which leaves all your other slots open for healing the party, buffing the party, clever utility spells, or whatever.

I'm not actually worried about firepower as much given the presence of a wizard and cleric. Offensive domains would be completely in opposition to the character that I'm playing, who is a cleric in a long family line of oracles and clerics of Boccob.

My understanding of the reserve feats is that they aren't that useful?