Archivist - Cleric help

[Dannyalcatraz]

IME, the utility of Reserve feats varies dependent upon the particular feat, the nature of the campaign and the Player's/PC's commitment to acquiring/using them.

For instance, if you're a "summoner," there are literally a half-dozen R-feats that augment your summoning in some way.

Or if you're in a campaign in which there are a lot of energy-resistant and/or incorporeal creatures, the 2 R-feats that give you at-will Force effect attacks can (at least) buy you time or even carry the fight. Combined with the Force-centric PrCls like Force Missile Adept or Argent Savant, and you get even more fun.

OTOH, if you find your PC burns through his spells of the relevant level quickly due to the DM's foe selection, that R-feat may be next to useless. Ditto if your PC's spell list doesn't have many spells that could power the feat.

 

[Herobizkit]

Since my character is 40+, it seems odd that he would just start from nothing going right into being an archivist.

I think this is actually one of your biggest hang-ups, equating age with character experience. Your character hasn't presumably done nothing for 40+ years. He could have very easily been an NPC with no adventuring class or an Archivist (albeit a non-adventuring one) his whole life. PC classes are the jobs that are the "cut above" your regular Joe; PC's go into dangerous places and do dangerous things... and hence advance in their power levels much faster than your at-home scholarly type (except in the Realms, of course). Work it into your story: your Archivist got a sweet gig reading books and doing research, and that was enough for him. He got a regular paycheck, had lots of leisure time, did what he loved/loved what he did, and anything that required real effort got parceled out to "adventurers".

At some point, your character will be joining a party of adventures... what is worth getting out of your comfortable rut at age 40+ (an age most adventurers won't get to, assuming you're human) to suddenly risk your life at the hands (and mouths) of beasties?

With that said, the best I could do was the cloistered cleric...

I prefer the ability to use my knowledge skills to give the party bonuses with the spells as backup. The party already has a cleric and a mage, so my role is purely supportive...

Ability to use wands/staffs as a wiz (Magic domain), some CHA-skill bonuses (Mind domain)

You know what? Given that the above is what you're focused on, I would take your first level as a Bard rather than CC. You get slightly better martial ability, you'll be able to cast all your spells in light armor, Cure spells will be on your spell list, you'll still get all Knowledge skills and 6 skill points/level,.... plus you'll have Inspire Courage for party buffing, and if you have any spare skill points, throw them into Use Magic Device and you can use ANY magic item, period. It's a match made in heaven.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

BTW, if your PC is 40+, don't forget your stat mods!

 

[paqqy]

I think this is actually one of your biggest hang-ups, equating age with character experience.

Well, part of the issue is not so much age, but some story elements that suggest life experience... Like the fact that the country that my character is from has mandatory military duty (like Israel and Singapore). Given other elements--that I come from a family of respected clerics/oracles-- suggests that, if anything, I should have been doing something respectable. I've thought of working around this by having him be a paper-pusher or a researcher. Then I wouldn't necessarily gain any levels...

Whatever he was doing, he's working for a government agency, so he has to have a clean record and respectable credentials. haha

At some point, your character will be joining a party of adventures... what is worth getting out of your comfortable rut at age 40+ (an age most adventurers won't get to, assuming you're human) to suddenly risk your life at the hands (and mouths) of beasties?

Nay, my character has already been adventuring with the 'FBI' doing his archivist gig. It's the other adventurers who will be joining me on special ops.

If that sounds like an NPC role, it is. My character was originally an NPC, but the DM shifted that role to me as a way of introducing the initial plot to the group who, by the way, are old friends and have no idea that I am going to be playing remotely over skype...
After the intro, I'll keep playing this character.

It's fun trying to come up with a story around some of those elements... although it also does a number on how I deal with setting my levels, etc. and is somewhat restrictive. =-\

You know what? Given that the above is what you're focused on, I would take your first level as a Bard rather than CC.

You get slightly better martial ability, you'll be able to cast all your spells in light armor, Cure spells will be on your spell list, you'll still get all Knowledge skills and 6 skill points/level,.... plus you'll have Inspire Courage for party buffing, and if you have any spare skill points, throw them into Use Magic Device and you can use ANY magic item, period. It's a match made in heaven.

I think bard is perhaps one of those things that might work in terms of optimizing, but might not work for the character's backstory. The only way I could see this working is if his military training was to make him a bard. A few snags though:

- Inspire Courage = +1 to atk/dmg/fear... Nobility Domain = +2 to all saves/checks/atk/dmg.

(Though I'm debating taking the mind domain instead, as Nobility is not Boccob's domain)

- Magic Domain allows me to use wizard items as if I were a wizard. Isn't that better than UMD because there are no rolls? My experience is that there are divine items and wizard items, so I'd have my bases covered?

- Trading away the Knowledge Domain (which I find somewhat lackluster) at 2nd level (CompDiv) would give me the Knowledge Devotion Feat for free. The only spell I would want from that Domain is Foresight and I could probably get a copy of that at a temple or through research.

I'm definitely not trying to put down your ideas. I really appreciate them! I'm naturally stubborn and argumentative. ha!

 

[Herobizkit]

Well, for what's it worth, it sounds like you've decided what you'd like to play, and that was the whole point, right?

 

[paqqy]

Well, for what's it worth, it sounds like you've decided what you'd like to play, and that was the whole point, right?

Haha. Perhaps. Though I'm still unsure. DM is AWOL, but I'm going to see if (given i take CC1) he'll let me retrain my CC-level spellcasting so that I don't lose any spell levels. Cross your fingers and wish me luck!

And thanks to everyone for the discussion!

 

[FoxWander]

Sorry this is so late to the discussion but I've got a radically different idea that may work for your character background, feed well into archivist AND enhance the utility of that class immensely. But it will take getting your DM to buy off on a slight variation of a class first- although I think the variation works very well for the background you've got going. A divine spellthief!

The only change to spellthief would be exchanging arcane spells for divine ones. This is hardly the cloistered cleric or other respectable job background you've discussed so far, but hear me out...

So, you came from a family of clerics and such. That explains your inclination to the divine. But for whatever reason- the gods themselves, or just the church lifestyle, didn't appeal to you. (which also fits with an archivist- casting divine spells w/out praying for them sort of flies in the face of accepted dogma) So your the black sheep of the family. Maybe you figured if you couldn't tap into the divine the normal way you'd break into it instead- hence spellthief. Then as a first level upstart, you stole a spell at exactly the wrong moment and got yourself in some heat way above your CR, and the MIBs show up with their offer. You chose the smart course and work for them, burying yourself in a librarian role hoping to disappear. Your research moves your spellthief background into archivist- and thus to the party. (Heck, you could even start of as an arcane spellthief with your research allowing you to exchange arcane for divine, which leads straight to archivist. After all, archivists are effectively "stealing" their divine spells.)

If your DM will go for it (and hopefully it'll be an easy sell since it does make a lot of sense) your set. Now for the awesome part that enhances your utility as an archivist as far as you want to take it- take the "Master Spellthief" feat from Complete Scoundrel (but again- divine, not arcane) at 3rd level. This would let your spellthief and archivist levels stack for determining what level spells you could steal and for archivist caster level.

That feat is what makes this combo shine! Not to mention, well worth giving up those cloistered cleric domains. The main limitation of archivist is relying on the DM to provide you with prayers and scrolls to copy into your book. When was the last time you found a prayerbook as loot? Probably never. But, if you could steal spells from your enemies... that's a different matter. Now, every divine caster you face is a potential font of knowledge for your prayerbook. And, when you have some downtime, you could lift spells from the cleric in your group- if he's willing.


See, I agree with Nifft- as a full caster your spells ARE your main class feature. Dark knowledge is an awesome ability- but it pales in comparison to the versatility of spells. Think of it this way, an archivist is essentially a cleric who exchanges spontaneous casting and turning for dark knowledge and a few other minor abilities. If those exchanges are equal then you have to consider this- would anyone consider turning and spontaneous casting the thing that makes clerics a good class? Doubtful. It's the spells. And since clerics effectively "know" every cleric spell ever, while archivists are limited to what's in their prayerbook (which, again, is limited to what the DM feeds you), then clerics still come out on top.

So even the playing field and steal the spells you want to copy into your book. Heck, your DM will probably thank you for it since he won't have to gen up prayerbooks and scrolls for you to find. Anyway, it's another option to think about- albeit a very effective one.

 

[paqqy]

A divine spellthief!

That's actually a really interesting idea.

Then as a first level upstart, you stole a spell at exactly the wrong moment and got yourself in some heat way above your CR, and the MIBs show up with their offer. You chose the smart course and work for them, burying yourself in a librarian role hoping to disappear.

Unfortunately, I can't choose what the event was that I had to be saved from. Neither my character nor the 'MiBs' actually know what the event was. The mystery, I assume, is part of the plot. The only thing anyone knows that some Intel provide the place and time for me to be rescued, but nothing about what I was going to be rescued from. So yeah, the point is that my class can't be tied to that event.

Your research moves your spellthief background into archivist- and thus to the party.

The PCs are drawn to me because they have all been recently given the same option as me (mind wipe or work-for-us) and assigned to work with me. Thus, my class can't motivate my purpose for being in the party.... this has already been my job for a while.

But, if you could steal spells from your enemies... that's a different matter. Now, every divine caster you face is a potential font of knowledge for your prayerbook. And, when you have some downtime, you could lift spells from the cleric in your group- if he's willing.

The spellthief mechanic doesn't work that easily. On an unwilling target, I need to succeed on a sneak attack. In most cases, I might be inclined to keep the Archivist as far from melee as possible, seeing how they're supposed to be in the back with the wizards.

Even on a successful steal, I can only steal 0th and 1-st level spells, as the level of spells I can steal progresses more or less as if I were a wizard (e.g., stealing 9th level spells at 18th level).

And I must cast the spell (or use the energy to fire one of my own) within an hour of absorbing it.

I can forgo the sneak attack on a willing target, but the mechanics still only allow me to steal 1st level spells.

Dark knowledge is an awesome ability- but it pales in comparison to the versatility of spells. Think of it this way, an archivist is essentially a cleric who exchanges spontaneous casting and turning for dark knowledge and a few other minor abilities. If those exchanges are equal then you have to consider this- would anyone consider turning and spontaneous casting the thing that makes clerics a good class? Doubtful. It's the spells. And since clerics effectively "know" every cleric spell ever, while archivists are limited to what's in their prayerbook (which, again, is limited to what the DM feeds you), then clerics still come out on top.

Don't get me wrong. I totally agree. I'm going to try to get the DM to let me retrain the spellcasting like that feat you posted from Complete Soundrel or by just letting me stack them without a feat.

One thing that I should mention: My goal with my character is to have all of my monster Knowledge Skills (arcana, dungeoneering, nature, religion, planes) maxed and the other Knowledges at 5 ranks relatively early on. The spellthief only has 'arcana' and 'local,' which leaves me with lots of skill points that I can't put into Knowledge skills.

But yeah, that's a very interesting idea! I'll definitely think about running that feat by the DM!

 

[FoxWander]

Glad you liked the idea at least. The background stuff was just what I came up with not knowing the specifics for your character.

My only thought was finding some way to put your character a little more in charge of what spells you are in your prayerbook-- instead of relying on what the DM decides to give you. Now, if your DM is going to work your class into the story and be pretty good about having you find prayers and scrolls, then this whole idea may be unnecessary.

I know the spellthief mechanics don't necessarily support copying stolen spells into your own books, but perhaps that's something you can work with your DM on. Either changing the class's mechanic so you can only steal spells for the purpose of scribing them later, and be unable to just cast them right away OR maybe a feat to that effect- one that lets you choose to not cast a spell right away and instead retain it for later scribing in your book. Anything that keeps you from being limited to just the spells gained when you level up (and whatever scrolls you can find/buy) will make your character that much better.

The whole idea for this comes from my frustration in a previous campaign where the limited number of spells my wizard had in his book became a huge liability as the campaign progressed. It was a fairly fast-paced game so we never had downtime for me to even get extra spells for copying. On top of that the DM never put scrolls in the loot we found AND we always faced sorcerers- not wizards. So I never got spellbooks as loot either. The 2 free spells from leveling are great, but if that's all you ever get you quickly become pretty limited in what you can do. I got so fed up with the situation that I created a PRC for my character built around the idea of stealing spells from other spellcasters!

Maybe your DM will be better than mine. If not, this idea is an option that can possible get around the major limitation of an archivist- the availability of new "prayers" to copy.