A couple of questions on 4E Immortal design

[Pssthpok]

Hey hey,

Here's my question: why do you always release a monster book before the PC rules?

No, but seriously, I am curious if the sketched out ideas on the immortality webpage still bear any likeness to what's currently going on in that noggin of yours.

For instance...

You say Portfolio Paths "replace" Paragon Paths. Can you give an example of how that works? Replacing powers I understand, replacing feats with divine abilities I understand, but replacing levels 11-20 with levels 31-40 seems... weird.

Likewise with Pantheons and Races: is my elf god no longer an elf? Is my dagger master no longer a dagger master? This makes me curious, y'see.

Furthermore, in terms of nomenclature, why isn't 31-40 the "Divine" tier?

On final question: you won't be advocating max hp, will you? I think that might be problematic.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Just realised you had a post too Khisanth...get to that in a minute.

Hi!

Hiya mate!

But if they're already getting advancement via worship I don't see why they need to benefit from hose thing except in an in-game capacity.

Well thats what the epic spell system was in 3e (well you could use it for direct damage spells but if you did you sucked). It was a system for creating rituals and 4e would benefit from such a thing especially post 30th level.

I've already been thinking I'll have a system (for creating Rituals) rather than a bunch of specific Rituals.

Well the thing is I don't see how advancement works without some sort of questing. Sure you could go out and get worshipers as your primary goal but then you're playing as advertising executives rather than adventurers.

Well there are two ways to exploit the Worship Points System/Event System.

Either the players go looking for more worshippers, or you have some sort of 'event' impact their existing worshippers. So its a balance between attack and defense. So you can still have questing.

How is it cheating exactly?

You want to play a God at 1st-level.

It's a coincidence in so far as it's a fairly obvious idea, I just used the handy super-weapon 4e had lying around in the background. I guess that in Prince of Undeath Orcus doesn't actually take control of the whole abyss does he?

He's preoccupied with killing the Raven Queen, although he does have Timesus try and break off another shard - although the PCs are supposed to intervene while thats in progress.

Although now I think about it this does mean that adapting Bloodstone to 35-40th level would be the better option if WotC has one for 30th level.

Probably a pair of 39th level elites (undead primordials) and some 40th level minions (Orcus' new demon master race).

Mate you need a MINIMUM of 7-8 encounters to ascend one Level. Most encounters average 3 different monster types. So that means you need about 20 stat blocks to take PCs up one level. We can drop that down a fewwith some repeats, but you don't want to overdo that so at least 15 stat blocks I'd say to make an interesting adventure covering the space of 1 ascended level.

Of course but rewriting it too much and it wouldn't be a conversion.

Then call it an adaptation, which is exactly what my Throne of Orcus adventure is.

Ok, I was just checking since I didn't want to stat out a ton of monsters then have the design rules change meaning I'd have to stat them all again.

Just use the official rules. I don't see myself making any notable changes beyond the Mega-monster rules and the new Army rules.

The extended damage and conversion tables.

The extended damage rules are fine up to about Level 60, then I think theres a mistake to attribute bonuses.

Back to waiting then. How familiar.

Aaarrrgh!

It's more a conceptual issue more than anything else. 4th editions setting has 18 gods some demon lords and the primordials. and that's about it for post 30th level. Using these as guidelines there's very little room for new monsters. The ELH for example has basically 3 (maybe 7 counting the devastation vermin) monsters of suitable power. And it's a much tighter setting than 3e had, adding in too many ultra beings would somewhat hurt the setting.

Okay, let me put it to you like this...did I have any problem introducing new (more powerful) monsters for 3E with the Epic Bestiary: Volume One and making them fit into the setting.

Yes but there's only so much the setting can hold without losing verisimilitude, like I said 4e has a fairly tight setting one based around game-play, meaning that there are areas designed for certain levels of play (prime=heroic, underdark=paragon, planes=epic).

Legendary = Divine Realms (Greater Powers), Alternate Realities, Cosmic Prisons (Primordials and such beings)
Immortal = Far Realm, Temporal Plane
Sidereal = Higher Dimensions, Interdimensional Space

While you certainly can fit in Legendary tier monsters into the planes it feels like it would become somewhat silly to explain why they aren't playing major roles in the cosmos. It's a similar problem that sidereal level play had in 3e.

For starters, 4E doesn't even stat the most powerful beings in its own setting! Greater Gods and Primordials.

My answer has been to just dump most of the core cosmology replacing it with something more like the Gold Box stuff.

Having the Sidereals operate on another level of consciousness (ie. the Higher Dimensions) might help.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there!

For Epic and Legendary Tier one interesting option would be 'deathworlds' - areas with super-deadly ecologies. Where Ancient Red Dragons would scurry and hide from the *real* top predators. (Epic/neotic dragons, or at least some types of them, might be natives of a place like this that later spread throughout the universes.) Inspiration: Harry Harrison's Deathworld, Alan Dean Foster's Midworld (which includes some predators that would give a Tarrasque a run for its money) .... actually several Alan Dean Foster novels are set on planets like this, but Midworld's probably the nastiest one of all.

Sounds totally cool.

I always remember reading a book about the Labours of Hercules back when I was about 11-12. I remember that Eurystheus is afraid of the Mares of Diomedes, so Hercules releases them on the slopes of Mount Olympus (where the text stated) "where they were slain by even more dangerous monsters". I kept thinking "Well what the hell were those monsters...I want to learn about them!?"

'Deathworlds' could be alternate Material Planes (or other planets on the same Material Plane, depending on how big the Material Plane is), really nasty layers of the Abyss (where even the demon lords and monarchs fear to intrude), demiplanes at the border of the Far Realm where mutagenic energies dominate the ecosystem and turn it into a Lovecraftian nightmare, or whatever.

I think the easy way of doing this sort of thing is with varying magic and physical factors. Obviously on high magic, high physical factor worlds, the top of the food chain predators are going to brush their teeth with Tarrasques.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey,

Hola amigo!

Here's my question: why do you always release a monster book before the PC rules?

Its traditional now.

...almost as traditional as the delays.

No, but seriously, I am curious if the sketched out ideas on the immortality webpage still bear any likeness to what's currently going on in that noggin of yours.

Your use of the word noggin made me chortle.

Reminds me of the Denogginator from (that episode of) Seinfeld.

For instance...

You say Portfolio Paths "replace" Paragon Paths. Can you give an example of how that works? Replacing powers I understand, replacing feats with divine abilities I understand, but replacing levels 11-20 with levels 31-40 seems... weird.

Well I don't really see it as any different to replacing powers. Powers get replaced every 15 levels or so, because their intrinsic value at that juncture maybe isn't as great...of course the onus is on me (and my team*) to create powers that you'll want to swop your Paragon Path powers for.

*

Of course, if I was clever, I'd have a mechanic that maybe lets you just double the power of your Paragon Path and retain it, rather than taking a new Portfolio Path (since not all Legendary characters will necessarily be 'gods' even though they would still be immortal via other means)...but I'm probably not clever enough to devise something like that.

Likewise with Pantheons and Races: is my elf god no longer an elf? Is my dagger master no longer a dagger master? This makes me curious, y'see.

Elf Gods would still be Elves.

Dagger Masters could still be Dagger Masters, although their construction could also be rebuilt using various portfolio powers.

Furthermore, in terms of nomenclature, why isn't 31-40 the "Divine" tier?

...because Solo monsters are 9 levels lower than standard monsters. Meaning that Greater Gods kick in about Level 46, which is Solo Level 37.

So in Levels 31-40 you will be a Demigod, in Levels 41-50 you will be a God. 41-45 = (Lesser) God, 46-50 = Greater God.

On final question: you won't be advocating max hp, will you? I think that might be problematic.

Unnecessary, divinity is gained (directly or indirectly) by levelling up now. So I don't need to differentiate between a Level 36 Demigod and a Level 36 Mortal...because there are no Level 36 mortals.

 

[Axolotl]

Hiya mate!

Hi!

I've already been thinking I'll have a system (for creating Rituals) rather than a bunch of specific Rituals.

And how exactly does it iffer from epic spellcasting as 3e potrayed it? (Apart from being balanced).

Well there are two ways to exploit the Worship Points System/Event System.

Either the players go looking for more worshippers, or you have some sort of 'event' impact their existing worshippers. So its a balance between attack and defense. So you can still have questing.

I know it can work very well but I just get horrible images of a worship based campaign devolving into the gods leaflets advertising their churches after the players realise it's the fastest way to advance.

You want to play a God at 1st-level.

And?You included LA for most monsters in the Epic Bestiary. Why does every character have to begin at level 1?

He's preoccupied with killing the Raven Queen, although he does have Timesus try and break off another shard - although the PCs are supposed to intervene while thats in progress.

That's the difference then, in my version Orcus would have achived ultimate power by the time the players fight him.

Mate you need a MINIMUM of 7-8 encounters to ascend one Level. Most encounters average 3 different monster types. So that means you need about 20 stat blocks to take PCs up one level. We can drop that down a fewwith some repeats, but you don't want to overdo that so at least 15 stat blocks I'd say to make an interesting adventure covering the space of 1 ascended level.

Those were only the monsters that would be involved directly i the fight with Orcus. I know I'd need a ton of new monsters to fight. Part of the point of doing the conversion was to create a bunch of monsters for Immortals to fight.

Then call it an adaptation, which is exactly what my Throne of Orcus adventure is.

Fair enough.

The extended damage rules are fine up to about Level 60, then I think theres a mistake to attribute bonuses.

I don't plan on going that high for a while.

Aaarrrgh!

I'm just kidding! I can wait.

Okay, let me put it to you like this...did I have any problem introducing new (more powerful) monsters for 3E with the Epic Bestiary: Volume One and making them fit into the setting.

No but the 3e cosmology was much looser and most of the monsters you introduced would now be merely Epic tier now.

Legendary = Divine Realms (Greater Powers), Alternate Realities, Cosmic Prisons (Primordials and such beings)
Immortal = Far Realm, Temporal Plane
Sidereal = Higher Dimensions, Interdimensional Space

Sounds okay.

For starters, 4E doesn't even stat the most powerful beings in its own setting! Greater Gods and Primordials.

It's not a matter of stats. It's a matter of influence. Any being on that level needs a reason for why they're not having a large influence on the settingand the whole just sleeping approach is fairly overused, espcially now the primordials are using it.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

For starters, 4E doesn't even stat the most powerful beings in its own setting! Greater Gods and Primordials.

An interesting take would be that the Primordials were WAY more numerous than the Gods, but being creatures of elemental Chaos, could not organize well and so the Gods won the war against far greater numbers. Not sure if it's 'canonical' but it could provide way more Legendary-Immortal tier foes. Especially since the Primordials ought to be very varied in form and powers.

Sounds totally cool.

Midworld (and all the Alan Dean Foster books set on weird planets: the Icerigger trilogy [first two books are better], Drowning World, Quofum] is awesome. You should probably read it ... all sorts of cool alien critters. If you've seen Avatar, about half the plot of Avatar seems to have been stolen from Midworld. It's about as close to a Midworld movie as we'll ever have... which is sad since Midworld would make an AWESOME movie.

It's a freaky planet, covered in a rainforest more than 2000 feet high ... the humans live on the 'third level' about halfway up the trees, since the sky is full of deadly creatures (including a critter that can shoot focused beams of light & heat - kind of like using a magnifying glass on ants but on a much bigger scale) and the ground is even worse.

I should stat up some of the critters from it... I made 3.5 stats on the wizards.com boards a couple of years ago, but I should try making them in 4e.

Silverslith would probably be pretty similar to a tarrasque, it's colossally huge (bigger than the tarrasque I think, it seems to be near Godzilla sized)

I always remember reading a book about the Labours of Hercules back when I was about 11-12. I remember that Eurystheus is afraid of the Mares of Diomedes, so Hercules releases them on the slopes of Mount Olympus (where the text stated) "where they were slain by even more dangerous monsters". I kept thinking "Well what the hell were those monsters...I want to learn about them!?"

Hmmm, haven't heard that version ... cool idea though. Some sort of guardian thing? Googling...

Wikipedia says they were killed by wolves, lions and bears sent by Zeus. Hmm... versions I read never said much about what happened once he got them tamed. Interesting.

I think the easy way of doing this sort of thing is with varying magic and physical factors. Obviously on high magic, high physical factor worlds, the top of the food chain predators are going to brush their teeth with Tarrasques.

Physical factor: I know it existed in the 2e AD&D High Level Campaigns book to describe how strong the laws of physics were on a plane, but how would it work in 3.5 or 4e? The Godzilla articles suggest it makes 'mundane' weapons more damaging, does it do other things too?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

An interesting take would be that the Primordials were WAY more numerous than the Gods, but being creatures of elemental Chaos, could not organize well and so the Gods won the war against far greater numbers. Not sure if it's 'canonical' but it could provide way more Legendary-Immortal tier foes. Especially since the Primordials ought to be very varied in form and powers.

I think you just have to say its the classic Law vs. Chaos confrontation whereby Chaos is either more numerous or more powerful individually, but is defeated by Law.

By the way I just got the Planes Below book yesterday - only had the time to speed read through so far, not convinced about the book itself yet as a whole (its definately nowhere near as good as Open Grave for instance), but it does have the coolest Primordial yet designed..Solkara. In fact its one of the most interesting monster designs I have seen in years (that wasn't one of my own*)

*

Totally nerfed the Xixecal for 4E though (Huge size! I mean come on!)...I think I'll have to fix that on my website.

...and their art for Ygorl is so less interesting than mine, gah - I was disappointed with that one too. In fact I even wonder if that art is for Ygorl, difficult to tell.

...Storm That Walks seems like an okay (Gargantuan) Amilictli style monster.

Midworld (and all the Alan Dean Foster books set on weird planets: the Icerigger trilogy [first two books are better], Drowning World, Quofum] is awesome. You should probably read it ... all sorts of cool alien critters. If you've seen Avatar, about half the plot of Avatar seems to have been stolen from Midworld. It's about as close to a Midworld movie as we'll ever have... which is sad since Midworld would make an AWESOME movie.

I have seen Avatar, I did like its critters.

It's a freaky planet, covered in a rainforest more than 2000 feet high ... the humans live on the 'third level' about halfway up the trees, since the sky is full of deadly creatures (including a critter that can shoot focused beams of light & heat - kind of like using a magnifying glass on ants but on a much bigger scale) and the ground is even worse.

Sounds like an ideal place for adventuring. Maybe a magic based invasion of an Avatar-like world rather than a sci-fi based invasion.

I should stat up some of the critters from it... I made 3.5 stats on the wizards.com boards a couple of years ago, but I should try making them in 4e.

I was recently doing some research into medieval monsters and its amazing how many really cool ideas there are out there that D&D hasn't even used yet.

Silverslith would probably be pretty similar to a tarrasque, it's colossally huge (bigger than the tarrasque I think, it seems to be near Godzilla sized)

I need to start reading some of these books.

Hmmm, haven't heard that version ... cool idea though. Some sort of guardian thing? Googling...

Its never explained in the book...I always had to dream them up.

Wikipedia says they were killed by wolves, lions and bears sent by Zeus. Hmm... versions I read never said much about what happened once he got them tamed. Interesting.

Clearly, even back in them days 'my' books were better than wikipedia.

Physical factor: I know it existed in the 2e AD&D High Level Campaigns book to describe how strong the laws of physics were on a plane, but how would it work in 3.5 or 4e? The Godzilla articles suggest it makes 'mundane' weapons more damaging, does it do other things too?

Well thats taking a low-factor Godzilla and applying him into a high physical factor world. That would work in reverse taking a high physical factor monster and putting them in a low physical factor world.

 

[S'mon]

I think a faithful rendition of the 1e Bloodstone series in 4e would run from Paragon to Epic; Throne of Bloodstone was doable by 18th level 1e characters, nothing there required 30th+ PCs, and the early stuff like fighting a war with Vaasa looks more Paragon than Epic to me. I'd think ca 15th-30th would be right. One good thing about 4e is you can stat pathetic foes like the 8th level Duergar clerics in Mines of Bloodstone as Minions!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

I think a faithful rendition of the 1e Bloodstone series in 4e would run from Paragon to Epic; Throne of Bloodstone was doable by 18th level 1e characters, nothing there required 30th+ PCs, and the early stuff like fighting a war with Vaasa looks more Paragon than Epic to me.

True, but what you have to recognize is that the adaptation of Throne of Bloodstone I did for my website was tailored for 100th-level characters (3E)...ie. Lesser Gods.

In that story, Orcus had conquered the Abyss, ripped Demogorgon in half and become a greater power. His greatest threat was his 'left hand' Zhenghi who was effectively an Intermediate God...he had become an Akalich. Orcus had sealed off his personal layers, so the only way to get through him was through certain portals on conquered worlds/lands. One such being in Vaasa.

I'd think ca 15th-30th would be right. One good thing about 4e is you can stat pathetic foes like the 8th level Duergar clerics in Mines of Bloodstone as Minions!

Or even better, use my army rules (from the Vampire Bestiary) and you can have the heroes face off against 100, 1000, 10,000 or more at a time.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

U_K!

...
Or even better, use my army rules (from the Vampire Bestiary) and you can have the heroes face off against 100, 1000, 10,000 or more at a time.

So, in H6, throne of bloodstone, one could run the old 1d1000 Balors thing.

While I do miss those good old days of 3E/3.5E GMing, I certainly do NOT miss the work!

After looking at your Thrin conversion, I have a couple of questions about 4E Epic+ design:
(I am not exactly sure if you answered any of these before, so bare with me here...)

1. Are you planning on altering the mechanical progression of dice-damage tables, 1/2 level bonuses, feats, and the like significantly from the Core design?
- I think it might be needed to keep the numbers from going askew, but there are so many factors a 30th level character can utilize that it is somewhat like the high-end 3E characters. (Although not as insane as playing a 30 level+ wizard in 3E )

2. Do you plan on utilizing an 'absolutes' type system for your immortal design? (Based on the Thrin stats)
- While certainly 'epic', absolutes are a bit clunky when they conflict. (Such as in the 3E IH: Perfect Attack vs Perfect defense: The PC takes perfect attack, and pretty much discards attack bonus, but then fights an enemy with perfect defense, where all that suddenly matters again!)

3. What do you plan on doing with epic destinies and the magic item glut that are 30th level characters?
- Unless you are making a 30th level character 'from scratch', the character would easily have dozens of magical items at their disposal by 30th level, with the included dozens of modifiers to go with them.
- Epic destinies are also a bit of a design headache: At 30th levels, the designers gave each one a 'win the game' power. Seriously, if the player cannot break the game over their knee with their 30th level power, they must be trying hard not to! Example: The Lorekeeper epic destiny easily can provide infinite healing-surge-less healing and the Swordmage epic destiny can do monstrous things with heavy-blade opportunity and Dimensional Charge.

4. Ability-score scaled abilities: What to do with them.
- The wizard's Orb of Imposition, as an example. Powers that have a non-damage effect based on an ability score (sliding X squares, -X to saves/defenses, +X to attack rolls; things that Players Handbook classes can do, let alone additional source books)
- These abilities get out of hand if ability scores keep improving. While the 'Orb can only get, at best, -10 to the targets saves from demigod, what happens when the max level is 60? Oh, I am sorry mr. Nexus Dragon, but you are minus forty to saving throws. I cast "ultra-epic stunlock 9!" (Or whatever obscene synergy a player might employ)

These kinds of things stick out to me like a sore thumb; I don't know, but I have been writing adventures for my 4E home games and designing almost all the (hundreds of) monsters for them from scratch for two years now, and those things jump out at me as the big hurdles to epic+ level games.