How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

[SkidAce]

I'll give you that before other good rpgs existed, D&D was obviously the best choice for non adventuring games, simply because there weren't any other options. It's pretty safe to say D&D hasn't been the best choice for at least 15 or 20 years though.

Though I didn't say D&D couldn't be the sort of game you can do any type of game with. I just said it wouldn't be. I'll also say that it shouldn't be. D&D is about pillaging dungeons, fighting dragons, and the like. Always has been, always will be. Don't get me wrong, you can tell great stories with D&D. It's just that those stories should be about pillaging dungeons and fighting dragons. If you want to tell stories that aren't at all like that, you probably should be playing a different game, and it's unreasonable to expect D&D to sacrifice it's clearly indicated specialty in order to serve your niche.

Fair enough. There may be better games out there that would serve the RP better. But we have played DnD for ages, and we had RP when we started, and still do. And it is true, while we do have spy adventures and merchant adventures, we do also continue to pillage dungeons and kill dragons.

Reckon we will stick with it.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Of cource our resdent power gamer (the ranger) said his death proves we failed, but most of us think other wise...

Your characters would feel it as a failure. Losing a good friend to an ugly goblin. Unless your characters really doesn't care if they loose friends. I would find that very strange.

An un-optimized party will have more deaths than an optimized party in the same encounters with the same players. Of course, your powergaming friend should* have played the meta-game an seen that he needed a character that stays out of problems to keep alive. In other words a bow-ranger or a dwarf battle vigor fighter or something.

*as a power gamer at least.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Of course, your powergaming friend should* have played the meta-game an seen that he needed a character that stays out of problems to keep alive. In other words a bow-ranger or a dwarf battle vigor fighter or something.

*as a power gamer at least.

he did... he was an archer ranger (since he knew it was a one shot he took beast master for the hawk to quarry farther away targets) he did a great job, until he forgot (and trust me the look on his face was memorable) and tried to swing around out of the line of fire of the minons and ran smack into 3 kobolds...one the wyrnpriest... then he got herded right back to were he didn't want to be... front and center with iron tooth...

I don't know if you know the fight at all (I am getting to be an expert myself having played and run it multi times now) there is a small area that is just off the minon room that has 3 dragonsheilds and a wyrmpriest... that is where his problem started....

 

[TarionzCousin]

Simply ask "Is this a character that Doug Douglason, elite Game Master, would allow?"[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI]YouTube - Fear of Girls© 1[/ame]

 

[Blackbrrd]

he did... he was an archer ranger (since he knew it was a one shot he took beast master for the hawk to quarry farther away targets) he did a great job, until he forgot (and trust me the look on his face was memorable) and tried to swing around out of the line of fire of the minons and ran smack into 3 kobolds...one the wyrnpriest... then he got herded right back to were he didn't want to be... front and center with iron tooth...

I don't know if you know the fight at all (I am getting to be an expert myself having played and run it multi times now) there is a small area that is just off the minon room that has 3 dragonsheilds and a wyrmpriest... that is where his problem started....

Hah! A un-tactical powergamer. I bet the DM had fun. I haven't been able to corner our bow-ranger yet. I am looking forward to it.

I do know the fight as I DM-ed it. My party just rolled right over the whole encounter.

Oh, and regarding your in-house powergamer, he lost out on the Toughness feat from taking the two-weapon fighting route. It would probably have saved his bacon in this instance. (5 more hp, 2 or 3 higher bloodied value, 1 or 2 higher healing surge value)

 

[rjdafoe]

Its also why some people (me included) don't really think that the MMO comparison has any weight in this case. I've been seeing this kind of behaviour in D&D players for about 15 years and theres advice in the 1e books that you should have 2 15s at least (quote is somewhere upthread, I think). The idea that this is derived from MMOs rather than the nature and history of a somewhat cruncy/weighty system where stats/build are important is, to me, somewhat laughable.

Specifically, if you go hunt the What's a DM/Player to do archives on the Wizard's forums then you'll see this exact issue cropping up since the earliest days of 3e at least. I'd lay good odds there are threads on this very sub-forum asking how to deal with characters with a wide range of cababilities dating to the early 2000s.

edit- I'm not denying that this can be an issue and isn't the way that everyone plays, or that 4e has this problem. Simply that the idea that it was somehow "brought in" by 4e and not endemic to most D&D editions is not well supported by history.

edit edit - Not the precise thing I was looking for, but 2 minutes of googling popped up this thread about a player worrying that their character needs to be better optimised to match the rest of the party. Dated 2003.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/45862-how-do-youre-monks-contribute-party.html

I am going to chime in here and say, IME, that is not correct. There has always been different levels of character building - but the attitude that everything else sucks compared to the optimised way or the attutude that you are playing the game wrong has increased dramatically since MMOs. IME, it is a direct relation to MMO raids where everyone has to be optimized a certain way, or you can't play. This very thread is filled with people saying how wrong it is to play that character. IME, that did not exist before - especially when the default assumptions was that you ROLLED your stats. IMO, the stat arrays and point buys have contributed somewhat to these attitudes.

 

[outsider]

And it is true, while we do have spy adventures and merchant adventures, we do also continue to pillage dungeons and kill dragons.

Reckon we will stick with it.

Right, as long as the default playstyle of D&D is a major part of your game, you should probably continue using it. No other game does it better. The people that view combat and dungeon delving as something to be avoided though, should probably be playing something else. And it's pretty unreasonable of them to expect a game called Dungeons and Dragons to focus less on dungeons and dragons, and more on whatever niche they are trying to play.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Hah! A un-tactical powergamer. I bet the DM had fun.

I'm sorry I guess I didn't really describe the player well...He isn't a good powergamer... all he cares about is bonus to hit and damage... he even played a 20 something wis all the bells and whistles... and he often found himself complaining no one was helping him get CA... even when his to hit was higher then the monsters AC...

I haven't been able to corner our bow-ranger yet. I am looking forward to it.

I have seen it done a few times...

I do know the fight as I DM-ed it. My party just rolled right over the whole encounter.

this was the worst I have been involved in, we lost a PC, but it has been a tough fight each time... although the TPK stories I hear tell me it is a swingey deal...

Oh, and regarding your in-house powergamer, he lost out on the Toughness feat from taking the two-weapon fighting route. It would probably have saved his bacon in this instance. (5 more hp, 2 or 3 higher bloodied value, 1 or 2 higher healing surge value)

ha...

now I need to fight the urge to tell him that...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I am going to chime in here and say, IME, that is not correct. There has always been different levels of character building - but the attitude that everything else sucks compared to the optimised way or the attutude that you are playing the game wrong has increased dramatically since MMOs. IME, it is a direct relation to MMO raids where everyone has to be optimized a certain way, or you can't play. This very thread is filled with people saying how wrong it is to play that character. IME, that did not exist before - especially when the default assumptions was that you ROLLED your stats. IMO, the stat arrays and point buys have contributed somewhat to these attitudes.

I think you are on the right track, but your blame is slightly off...

back in the 80's and 90's there were jerks who said things like "That isn't good enough," or "Why are you playing a suboptimal character on MY team"

BUT they were exceptions... meanwhile everyone considered them jerks and just kept going, even people who agreed with it but would not say it. Now que the interwebs (and yes the MMOs) where you are not friends with everyone, there is a much less social contract...and you can say what ever you want.

MMOs and 4e are just showing that people are less considerat of others...just look at the thread title, it isn't "How do I politely say I think you need help" It says "Your character sucks"



I will say this, I do not build characters by math alone, I do not use spreadsheets to increase my characters, and I don't go out of my way to build the best X in the game... I design a character and build it as I go. I follow themes, and personality... and sometimes that means I am less then the optimal build... but I always bring something to the table...

 

[outsider]

IME, that did not exist before - especially when the default assumptions was that you ROLLED your stats.

IME, even back in the roll for attributes days, it was expected your highest score would be in the attribute most important to your class.

Nobody in this thread is saying that every character should have an 18. Frankly, for some builds it's not even optimal. What they are saying is that your attack stat should be higher than a 14, which is perfectly reasonable. If it was a 16 instead of a 14, I doubt this thread would have existed, and 16 int most definitely isn't optimal for a Swordmage. Nobody is trying to push anybody into playing the one true uber build(if they were, they'd be saying anything other than 20 int sucks for a swordmage, and they are NOT saying that).