Edition wars...a GOOD thing? or if not, an APPROPRIATE thing?

[Aus_Snow]

Thoughts? Let me have it.

There's a time and a place. I say this as one who has, some time in the distant past (!), taken part in said wars on more than one occasion. Live and learn, eh.

In short, there are other places on teh arpatubes better suited, if that's your bag.

 

[N0Man]

So to dislike 4E is irrational and childish.

Dislike? Absolutely not. Prefer not to play? Not at all. Disagree with the design? Of course not. Want to skip it entirely? Your choice.

However, what I have often seen from quite a few (even if it is a vocal minority) is not just a simple dislike or preference difference. It is complete and utter hatred and contempt.

But when I see people say things like the following (which I have seen all of and more):

• I'd like to punch (insert WotC designer) in the face.
• The only reason I'd ever even accept a 4E PHB if it were given to me is so I could burn it.
• I'd rather vomit than play 4E.
• 4E fans can only appeal to people who are stupid and dumb at math.

I'd say statements like these qualify as childish and irrational, regardless of which side you are on.

The edition wars suck, because they are frequently not really about critical assessment as much as heightened emotion and knee jerk reactions. People get offensive and defensive, and feel a need to validate their choice and frequently invalidate those who choose the opposite.

The suggestion that big edition wars is a sign they went the wrong direction is a questionable argument in the first place. If they went such a terrible direction, there wouldn't be an edition war, there would be abandonment.

If it hadn't changed enough, there would be either abandonment due to D&D becoming stagnant, or there would be arguments about how there was no point in upgrading because it was basically the same game. People would dismiss it as 3.75 and resent that it came so soon after 3.5 without offering enough.

The fact that an edition war exists is a sign that there is enough acceptance and people that are happy with it that they are willing to debate with those who are critical of it, don't have a taste for it, or are resistant to change.

But even if the wars tell us that there is some noticeable degree of acceptance, it's still turning gamer against gamer and dividing hobbyists. It turns off new gamers from one side or the other due to peer pressure of their particular social group. It might turn them away from gaming entirely. It can even cause conflicts between friends.

I recently discussed D&D with a friend, because I know he has been playing 3.5 recently. I thought since I played 4E, we had something we could discuss in common. Instead, it turned into him attacking 4E. I found it ironic since I played 2E, 3E, 3.5, and 4E, and he only played 3E and never played 4E once...

The game didn't do this; WotC didn't do this. Players and their edition wars did this.

 

[xechnao]

if it's moved to "adventure paths/modules/settings," people who don't use published adventure paths, modules or settings might never realize that this is the place for homebrew cultural or roleplaying discussion.

So name the forum "settings & adventures: design and actual play"

Dunno. I am positive there is a way to restructure the forums in a way that help people forget edition wars and focus on other things.

 

[Woas]

ENWorld Administrators, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for ENWorld and the people who post here, if you seek freedom from trolls: Come here to this thread! Administrators, close this thread! Admins, tear down that original post!

 

[Garthanos]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I favor the General forum because people will talk about things that go beyond edition. I like seeing dungeon design commentary from OD&D and 1e fans, setting talk from 2e fans, character concept talk from 3e fans and discussion of exciting terrain setups from 4e fans — and better yet, a mix of all of those topics, from all of those editions, and from other games besides. Talking about RPGs is more than just talking about mechanics. I like the discussions on inspiration, on roleplaying, on personal takes on given races or monster.

That's what makes the edition wars all the more disappointing to me. They are openly hostile to discussions of actual content, discussions that would greatly benefit from having aficionados of all games participating.

Everyone out there who loves a particular edition of D&D but doesn't feel offended by other people talking about a less favorite edition within your line of sight, who is interested in talking with people about their games even if you wouldn't want to personally play in those games, who sees your tribe as "gamers" rather than "3e players" or "4e players" or "Pathfinder players" — you guys are the best.

Sorry couldn't give the experience point some nonsense about not spreading them out enough.

 

[Garthanos]

Edition warring is *that* it is negative, it is not worth reading, and it is usually a waste of time and breath on both sides.

Jay

Remember all those class survivor threads found them negative ... I started going through picking out things I saw getting torn at and threw in some of my props and positives... gave me a forum for thinking about it.

 

[BryonD]

There was certainly no "need", but you must admit more than a few people think there was very good reason to.

A lot of people have had their interest in D&D reinvigorated by the new edition. It's just a shame that there are also a lot of people who feel left behind by it all.

I agree.

But I think where the issue comes in is that the two games are still so far apart. They are certainly a lot of people who like both. But just as certainly there are a lot of people on both sides who like one and dislike the other.

From the WotC point of view it may as well be a proclamation that Major League Baseball has been banned and only the National Football League is permitted. A lot of people like both and don't really care. The people who hated all that baseball are thrilled. The people who love baseball are feeling betrayed. And they wonder why we can't have both.

Obviously the first response to that is: Wotc didn't come into you house and burn all your 3E books. And that is 100% true. But, at least at some level, there is importance to the name D&D and playing the current, actively supported of that big name game. So that creates some ill-will.

As I've said before, the name itself is not all that important to me personally. I really feel very fondly of old D&D for the great nostalgia of it. And they were good games. But only 3E is a "D&D" that is on my preferred play list. And not because it is D&D, but because of the mechanics.

But even with that I was disappointed when I learned more and more of the great departure that 4E was coming out to be. I had grown very accustomed to having the 800 lb gorilla cranking out product in line with my tastes. And for years I had been completely comfortable ignoring the biggest name in gaming. But, clearly, over nine years I became comfortable and complacent on that. And I'll admit that there was a chip on my should for some time.

Now, I know I've still got the "edition warrior" / "h4ter" label on me. (And I'm really not a hater at all.) But I don't believe I've had a chip on my shoulder in a while. At least not a sour attitude chip. I probably do have a "You wanna debate about it? I'm your huckleberry, lets have fun" chip. But there is a smile on my face. I have great games and I enjoy debating. Win/win

But just as some people have "you took my 3E" chips. I think at least as many people have "you are not embracing my 4E" chips. I think it comes down to the armchair psychology of "you don't agree with my opinion, I take that as a personal insult". I read some posts and really get the idea that some people see a game they like and feel entitled to having the marketplace fall cleanly in line with their preference. And they get emotional when their divine right is not served.

I've had people directly tell me that 4E offers everything 3E offers and that the play experience at the table is identical, except easier to run. I don't see that as remotely true and I'm happy to debate the points that 3E does better.

I've had people directly tell me that the only reason there was a divide in the community was because 4E was new and campaigns had to roll over. That the divide was just a transitional blip. Granted, that argument is pretty well dead now, but I'm still happy to debate it.

There is not a lot of respect of "you enjoy your games for your reasons and I enjoy mine for mine" going in either direction.

Me, I love 3E. I'm happy playing it. I enjoy telling people why. I enjoy debating.

 

[Windjammer]

Obviously the first response to that is: Wotc didn't come into you house and burn all your 3E books. And that is 100% true. But, at least at some level, there is importance to the name D&D and playing the current, actively supported of that big name game. So that creates some ill-will.

It's one thing for a company to stop printing new books (or even reprinting old ones) for an edition of a game it no longer supports. Fine, everyone can understand that.

However. Back when 3E arrived, WotC actually put up free support for editions they hadn't even helped to create. Look at the 'Older Editions' section on the WotC website and you'll find a lot of free downloads of 1E and 2E stuff. Now that's a concrete gesture of benevolence every customer can understand.

However, when 4E arrived, that 'Older Editions' free download section was never updated to accomodate 3E content. So that's already something to swallow - so editions that weren't even their own babies got more love than their own labour of love? How's that for a disconnect?

What really made it worse in my view, though, was the PDF debacle in 2009. By removing all PDFs regardless of edition, including their 3.5 PDFs of Rule Compendium etc. on DriveThru they actively nailed the coffin shut. For no good reason - the 3.5. PDFs and their piracy wasn't eating into their own book sales since, at that point, they were no longer in the business of selling 3.5. books.

I think it was when they removed the 3.5. PDFs, at latest, that the final goodwill of 3.5 leftover customers went out of the window.

We really are looking at a company that has fully realized that the worst competition it currently faces is its own previous product, and that acted as fiercely and uncompromisingly as possible to remove that competition, to the point of removing the last 3.5. products available - PDFs.

I think that tells us a lot what would have happened if the OGL for the d20 system wasn't non-retractable. I'm sure they'd have pullled away the SRD as well if they could.

So there. We aren't just talking about a company that stopped printing books. We're talking about a company that has taken any possible actions to remove any active product support for 3.5. that existed out there. And that's why the 3.5. crowd is angry at them. And how couldn't they? It's not like we ask them to put out new product, or maintain PDF sales on their own website to be administered by their own personnel. No, we'd just like them to keep in place what's out there already, with no effort on their part except to collect the sales bills at the end of the month from DriveThru etc.

And they chose not to.

 

[Fanaelialae]

@ByronD:
To use your analogy, it's rather more like WotC, a longtime sponsor of MLB, retracted their sponsorship in favor of the NFL. Nonetheless, MLB still has a number of sponsors like Paizo and Crafty Games. WotC didn't ban 3e, they just no longer support it.

@Windjammer:
I think you're mis-portraying a few assumptions about WotC as fact. As far as I'm aware, the only reason given for the retraction of pdfs were concerns regarding piracy.

It doesn't make sense to me that WotC would retract all pdfs because 3e was competing with 4e. For starters, someone playing 3e (the most probable customer of 3e pdfs) is unlikely to switch to 4e just because they cannot purchase pdfs. Even without the capacity to acquire new pdfs, they still have all of their existing 3e material, and can still purchase 3e books from ebay or Amazon. Pathfinder and Fantasy Craft are also viable options for those who prefer 3e.

Additionally, they pulled 4e pdfs as well! You can't boost sales by removing your competition and your own product at the same time.

Finally, having worked for corporations before, it makes sense to me that the higher ups would have pulled pdfs due to piracy concerns. Of course it probably has little practical world value, but upper management consists of people (who, like most people, want to retain their jobs). It looks good to the shareholders when management is doing something about the problem (and conversely, might reflect poorly if they do nothing). IMO.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I agree.

But I think where the issue comes in is that the two games are still so far apart. They are certainly a lot of people who like both. But just as certainly there are a lot of people on both sides who like one and dislike the other.

From the WotC point of view it may as well be a proclamation that Major League Baseball has been banned and only the National Football League is permitted. A lot of people like both and don't really care. The people who hated all that baseball are thrilled. The people who love baseball are feeling betrayed. And they wonder why we can't have both.

Obviously the first response to that is: Wotc didn't come into you house and burn all your 3E books. And that is 100% true. But, at least at some level, there is importance to the name D&D and playing the current, actively supported of that big name game. So that creates some ill-will.

As I've said before, the name itself is not all that important to me personally. I really feel very fondly of old D&D for the great nostalgia of it. And they were good games. But only 3E is a "D&D" that is on my preferred play list. And not because it is D&D, but because of the mechanics.

But even with that I was disappointed when I learned more and more of the great departure that 4E was coming out to be. I had grown very accustomed to having the 800 lb gorilla cranking out product in line with my tastes. And for years I had been completely comfortable ignoring the biggest name in gaming. But, clearly, over nine years I became comfortable and complacent on that. And I'll admit that there was a chip on my should for some time.

Now, I know I've still got the "edition warrior" / "h4ter" label on me. (And I'm really not a hater at all.) But I don't believe I've had a chip on my shoulder in a while. At least not a sour attitude chip. I probably do have a "You wanna debate about it? I'm your huckleberry, lets have fun" chip. But there is a smile on my face. I have great games and I enjoy debating. Win/win

But just as some people have "you took my 3E" chips. I think at least as many people have "you are not embracing my 4E" chips. I think it comes down to the armchair psychology of "you don't agree with my opinion, I take that as a personal insult". I read some posts and really get the idea that some people see a game they like and feel entitled to having the marketplace fall cleanly in line with their preference. And they get emotional when their divine right is not served.

I've had people directly tell me that 4E offers everything 3E offers and that the play experience at the table is identical, except easier to run. I don't see that as remotely true and I'm happy to debate the points that 3E does better.

I've had people directly tell me that the only reason there was a divide in the community was because 4E was new and campaigns had to roll over. That the divide was just a transitional blip. Granted, that argument is pretty well dead now, but I'm still happy to debate it.

There is not a lot of respect of "you enjoy your games for your reasons and I enjoy mine for mine" going in either direction.

Me, I love 3E. I'm happy playing it. I enjoy telling people why. I enjoy debating.

The crux of all this is legitimacy. 4E fans want the RPG community to if they don't embrace it, accept 4E as a "legitimate" iteration of D&D, while 3E fans feel like the release of 4E and the embracing of it by a large percentage of the D&D community has "delegitimized" 3E, and are angry about that.