Edition wars...a GOOD thing? or if not, an APPROPRIATE thing?

[Lanefan]

I am still not convinced though that forums cannot be improved. Perhaps industry talk could have its own forum. Things like OGL, GSL, Wotc business plans, Paizo's or Green Ronin's countdowns could be placed there.

What also bothers me, and think is a problem at this point, are the various news and speculations about the next D&D product in the general discussion. I think these should serve and be served better in the publisher's or 4e forums.

Shunting industry talk and 5e speculation off into their own forums where few will venture sounds like a sideways method of simply trying to kill off those avenues of discussion. Why would you want to do that?

WotC instituted it over a year and a half ago. The WotC train has left the station. Further discussion about what they could, would, or should do to gain the love of lovers of earlier editions, when they have clearly decided to not court same, is not "resistance".

Yes it is, in two ways:

1. A decision such as that can always be reversed; but won't be unless the "resistance" loudly and frequently makes its case.
2. Resistance now might help determine how such things are handled when 5e arrives.

Lan-"loudly resisting"-efan

 

[Hussar]

On these forums, I'm not hearing that. I'm hearing "it is still D&D", which is not the same statement. You can have two round flat foods in boxes - one has tomato sauce, the other olive oil and garlic - they are both "pizza", but they aren't the same thing.

Or maybe you're some variant of purist, and one of them isn't pizza. I honestly don't care if you think they are both pizza. If someone stops selling the tomato sauced version, there's only so long you should gripe about it, or keep suggesting new marketing activities for the sauce-less version to make tomato-lovers like it.

If you want to hold a private pizza party, that's a separate matter. But don't expect the people who no longer sell sauced pizza to host it for you.

Great food analogy and now I'm hungry for some bbq sauce pizza. Oh, wait, that's not served where I live. I guess I should go and shout at the local pizza place for the next two years until they give me bbq sauce pizza.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Great food analogy and now I'm hungry for some bbq sauce pizza. Oh, wait, that's not served where I live. I guess I should go and shout at the local pizza place for the next two years until they give me bbq sauce pizza.

If its a local guy and not a chain, and you're a regular, you might get what you ask for.

Its worked for me at some Italian places I frequent. Ditto my Mom at certain sushi joints.

Squeaky wheels get the grease, as the saying goes.

And sometimes, even big corporations change their minds based on customer demands- not often, admittedly- but it happens. Family Guy got a second chance at life, and its not the only show that has come back due to fan outcry.

Most famously, Coke brought back its classic recipe.

 

[Hussar]

DannyA - There is a problem with the Coke analogy though. New Coke failed. AFAIK, 4e isn't failing by a long shot.

Family Guy may have come back, but Firefly certainly didn't.

There really has to be a time when waving the flag become counter productive. Constantly agitating for something runs the risk of just being written off.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

DannyA - There is a problem with the Coke analogy though. New Coke failed. AFAIK, 4e isn't failing by a long shot.

Family Guy may have come back, but Firefly certainly didn't.

There really has to be a time when waving the flag become counter productive. Constantly agitating for something runs the risk of just being written off.

Not analogies- simple statements of facts: other products have been rescued from the dustbin of history due to customer activism.

Family Guy's resurrection took 4 years.

Firefly, while not getting back on TV, was made into a movie. (How good it was depends upon who you ask...)

New Coke failed(ish)- it was still in production as Coke II as late as 2006, and I don't know if its actually been discontinued- because it was an undesired replacement for a perfectly good product.

As you so rightly point out, 4Ed is doing just fine. So did New Coke, for a while. But 4Ed has already passed the point by which the dip in New Coke sales became an obvious problem for the Coca-Cola company.

However, just as 4Ed is succeeding, so are the children of 3.5 and resales of 3.5 material itself. Its not like Pathfinder, True 20, Midnight, Arcana Unearthed, FantasyCraft, Warlocks & Wizards, etc. aren't finding purchase among the "disenfranchised" lovers of 3.5.

While I don't have any sales figures on hand, I have no doubt that 4Ed is the current 800lb gorilla of RPGs. I'd be surprised to find otherwise.

So I'd be curious to see the sales figures for the major 3.5 derived rulesets- aggregated, of course, in order to see just what chunk of the RPG market such games command. That, coupled with an examination of the resale market for 3.5 products, would give us an inkling as to the actual size of the 3.X market. And not just raw sales, but also how sales are trending for the games (both aggregated 3.X and 4Ed) within the industry and the economy as a whole.

What I'm getting at is an assessment of what kind of threat do such games present- does the 3.X market present any credible threat to 4Ed's market share? Is 3.X the 500lb Franken-gorilla of the RPG world? Is it getting bigger? Or is the entire 3.X market smaller than not only 4Ed, but other major games as well?

IOW, did WotC inadvertently create its own strongest competition?

If it has, if the aggregate 3.X market is a continued real force in the overall RPG market, WotC will not simply ignore that. Just like past revisionists of D&D at least examined their strongest competition when doing their design work, so, too will the designers of 5Ed consider what other near competitors (or, in econ-speak, substitutes) exist in the market and why they exist as competitive threats at all.

They'll ask "Does 3.X- or any other game in the market- deliver something that 4Ed doesn't that could and should be incorporated in 5Ed without changing our overall design?" They'll also ask if there are any designs within 4Ed that ultimately proved to be unpopular even within the game's players, for whatever reasons.

 

[Ourph]

I guess I should go and shout at the local pizza place for the next two years until they give me bbq sauce pizza.

That's the wrong analogy. Shouting at the local pizza place management would be like writing nasty letters to the WotC designers and managers. It might not have a huge chance of success, but at least there's some constructive activity involved. Edition warring is like going to stand in the frozen pizza aisle at the local supermarket and haraguing the folks buying tomato sauce pizzas.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For the record, neither my Mom nor I shouted at the people who owned the restaurants we got to bend to our will...we were at least polite about our requests.

Flies with honey and all that.

And I do this kind of thing all the time. I've been talking to Malden guitars about doing a customized baritone version of their Subhuman.

So far, no dice, they keep saying they don't have a custom shop yet....but they did send me a nifty baseball cap with the company logo!

 

[mudbunny]

Is there a WotC fan policy in place, like with last edition, that specifically allowed this?

Anyone know? Is there anyone from WotC we could ask?

I will poke someone about it to see if there is an official position. I make no promises, etc, etc, blahblahblah

 

[N0Man]

In my opinion, the editions war has come about due to the alienation of a segment of the gaming community brought about by decisions made by the current owners of the D&D brand.

This alienation made the editions war unavoidable, so in a sense it is "appropriate". On the other hand, the editions war is not a good thing because it divides us.

The current owners of the D&D brand are the ones that preserved the existence of D&D and brought forth a new edition when TSR was doing quite badly.

The current owners also received tons of criticism when they brought out 3E, because many gamers felt that 3E dumbed down the game, felt too video gamey, wasn't D&D anymore, was too focused on combat, and alienated the long-time players... It's funny how that works.

Anytime you change a franchise that people are used to, there will be some resistance.

Staying with the old edition runs the risk of stagnation and the franchise dying out. There will likely be fewer and fewer new players being added, while long-term players will likely have all what they need by now and slow down on their buying. From what we've been told, adventures don't sell as well as core books, and 3.0/3.5 really isn't lacking in books covering classes, races, and options.

Changing minorly will likely earn the resentment of fans as well, as they feel like WotC is just milking them for more money for a small edition change (such as how some felt about 3.0 to 3.5).

Being willing to make large changes gives them an opportunity to really rethink their design decisions and come up with a version that they feel is a significant enough step forward in order to draw in sales of their new edition from both new players as well as current players. I'm sure they are smart enough to realize that some won't like such a change, but the alternatives really aren't that great for them, despite what you might prefer.

Their best chance is to try to shake things up to revitalize interest in their franchise, which they did.

 

[N0Man]

Shunting industry talk and 5e speculation off into their own forums where few will venture sounds like a sideways method of simply trying to kill off those avenues of discussion. Why would you want to do that?
Yes it is, in two ways:

1. A decision such as that can always be reversed; but won't be unless the "resistance" loudly and frequently makes its case.
2. Resistance now might help determine how such things are handled when 5e arrives.

Lan-"loudly resisting"-efan

It doesn't matter how loudly the "resistance" yells, if they are a minority, people who have a bias against the company in the first place, probably won't be swayed into being their customers anyway, or want something that goes against the core of your company's current philosophy or business plan.

It doesn't matter how loud restaurant goers yell, they aren't likely to get their local vegetarian restaurant to start carrying steak, or a McDonald's restaurant to replace Big Macs with Veggie Burgers.