Spell lists for non-core classes that take Spell Compendium into account?

[jeffh]

I was looking through WotC's 3.5 archives today and the "interview" (i.e. piece of thinly disguised marketing fluff) for the Spell Compendium promises lists for classes like the Hexblade in a web enhancement. However, the link leads to nothing of the sort, merely a sortable (sort of - try to isolate the spells for a particular class and see what I mean) list of spells from the PH and SC that makes no mention whatsoever of those classes. Does anyone know if spell lists for non-core classes that take the Spell Compendium, and ideally also the Player's Handbook II, into account exist, whether in official or fanmade form?

I'd be particularly interested in the Hexblade and Shugenja, among classes that predate the SC, and the Beguiler and Duskblade, from PHII. (PHII has lots of new goodies for the latter two classes, but I find it a little hard to believe the Spell Compendium only contains three spells suited to the Duskblade and none at all suited to the Beguiler.)

 

[Dandu]

My understanding is that it is up to DM discretion.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd be particularly interested in the Hexblade and Shugenja, among classes that predate the SC, and the Beguiler and Duskblade, from PHII. (PHII has lots of new goodies for the latter two classes, but I find it a little hard to believe the Spell Compendium only contains three spells suited to the Duskblade and none at all suited to the Beguiler.)

Classes like Beguiler that know their entire spell list and spont. cast it aren't supposed to get any new spells to their lists. They generally get some sort of expanded knowledge class feature to cover that.

As for Duskblade...they already are pretty overpowered with up to 10 spells/day of a level. The extremely limited spell list is one of their only balancing factors.

Hexblade, Wu Jen, and Shugenja could certainly use more spells on thier lists, among other non-core classes, it's a shame they never did that themselves.

At any rate, more arcane spells in existence means more potential Eternal Wands that any arcanist can use?

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Classes like Beguiler that know their entire spell list and spont. cast it aren't supposed to get any new spells to their lists. They generally get some sort of expanded knowledge class feature to cover that.

They shouldn't get new spells, but I believe it was suggested in one dev interview or new spells section that they be allowed to replace spells on their lists, so they can take advantage of new books but don't expand their list at all.

As for Duskblade...they already are pretty overpowered with up to 10 spells/day of a level. The extremely limited spell list is one of their only balancing factors.

They're...not overpowered at all, really. The reason that have so many spell slots is that their class features revolve around channeling them through their weapons. The ability to channel 10 shocking grasps or Kelgor's fire bolts or chill touches per day is no different from an ability that lets you make your weapon flaming or shocking or frost a bunch of times per day. The non-channel-able spells do the same thing, buffing your attacks or movement for a short time or debuffing opponents, which is exactly what you'd be doing with a martial/arcane/PrC gish build.

Hexblade, Wu Jen, and Shugenja could certainly use more spells on thier lists, among other non-core classes, it's a shame they never did that themselves.

As a rule of thumb, I let my players pick a secondary ability modifier (Wis or Cha for wu jen, Int or Wis for shugenja, etc.) and add that many spells of each level to their class list from new books, following the guidelines in SpC. Getting 3-5 extra spells per level doesn't unbalance them too much.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

They shouldn't get new spells, but I believe it was suggested in one dev interview or new spells section that they be allowed to replace spells on their lists, so they can take advantage of new books but don't expand their list at all.

Interesting. I suppose that'd be fine.

They're...not overpowered at all, really. The reason that have so many spell slots is that their class features revolve around channeling them through their weapons. The ability to channel 10 shocking grasps or Kelgor's fire bolts or chill touches per day is no different from an ability that lets you make your weapon flaming or shocking or frost a bunch of times per day. The non-channel-able spells do the same thing, buffing your attacks or movement for a short time or debuffing opponents, which is exactly what you'd be doing with a martial/arcane/PrC gish build.

Lots of casters depend on spellcasting to function, and farem uch worse than a Duskblade is they run out of spells. Lots of non duskblade gishes seem to fare just fine with 6 base slots per level or less. I do admit 10 per level base is nice for getting to use Arcane Strike every single round...

As a rule of thumb, I let my players pick a secondary ability modifier (Wis or Cha for wu jen, Int or Wis for shugenja, etc.) and add that many spells of each level to their class list from new books, following the guidelines in SpC. Getting 3-5 extra spells per level doesn't unbalance them too much.

The thing with those classes is that they're generally weaker than their core counterparts AND have been largely ignored by supplements. And many of the non-core spells seem like a perfect fit for the flavor of those classes. My friend made a Wu Je once just to try something different. He tried his hardest to (ab)use the unique class features to try and keep up to par with a regular caster, if only as an experient. All he could do is wonder, "Why play this when i could just make a Wizard?"

Of course, Warmage gets a class feature for learning new spells and still completely fails to match sorcs and wizards at even doing his most basic functions...

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Lots of casters depend on spellcasting to function, and farem uch worse than a Duskblade is they run out of spells. Lots of non duskblade gishes seem to fare just fine with 6 base slots per level or less.

Note that duskblades only get spells up to 5th level, while most arcane gishes go for +16 BAB and 9th level spells. A sorcerer, before bonus spells, has more spells than a duskblade after bonus spells assuming the same ability mod, using a better list and higher-level spells. The duskblade gets a bunch of lower-level spells to channel and Arcane Strike with, which isn't problematic at all.

Of course, Warmage gets a class feature for learning new spells and still completely fails to match sorcs and wizards at even doing his most basic functions...

That's because his base list is too narrow to match the main full casters. A wu jen has a sufficiently broad spell list with enough unique spells that I could see it keeping up if a wu jen could add a dozen or so spells of its choice to its list, whereas no matter how many blasting spells you add to a warmage's list it's never really going to be able to break out of its mold.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Note that duskblades only get spells up to 5th level, while most arcane gishes go for +16 BAB and 9th level spells. A sorcerer, before bonus spells, has more spells than a duskblade after bonus spells assuming the same ability mod, using a better list and higher-level spells. The duskblade gets a bunch of lower-level spells to channel and Arcane Strike with, which isn't problematic at all.

Some might get 9th level spells and +16 BAB after a lot of work multiclassing, sure. I see plenty of gishes that don't end up with 9th level spells, though. At least with Duskblade, you don't even need to spend a feat to keep up to CL 20. Nor do you have to spend money on mithral twilight gear. Bard somehow manages to get by with only level 6 spells, very few/day, and medium BAB. I still see no reason that any class needs more than 6/level base slots. And I've played with Duskblades who used a spell nearly every turn of every fight (often swift ones or weapon channelling). I never once saw them run out of spells. Never. That tells me the class gets too many.

That's because his base list is too narrow to match the main full casters.

Well, yes. That's a given. What I meant though, was that even at his primary function of being a blaster, the Warmage is simply inferior to Sorc and Wizard (Evoker, in this case). When you add to that the fact that blasting is an inferior method of spellcasting anyway, especially as your only schtick, and Warmage becomes one of the few full casters that I might actually seriously label as "weak."

Here's a good thread on why they fail compared to a Sorcerer, if you'd like: Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

 

[Dandu]

For dummies version of the above thread:

Wings of Cover
Wings of Flurry
Greater Arcane Fusion
Arcane Spellsurge
Maw of Chaos

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Some might get 9th level spells and +16 BAB after a lot of work multiclassing, sure. I see plenty of gishes that don't end up with 9th level spells, though. At least with Duskblade, you don't even need to spend a feat to keep up to CL 20.

Rephrased, then: optimized gishes get both of those. The point of the duskblade is to give you a passable gish that works out of the box without jumping through hoops.

Nor do you have to spend money on mithral twilight gear. Bard somehow manages to get by with only level 6 spells, very few/day, and medium BAB.

The bard isn't a gish, really, it's a support caster at best; gishes are meant to buff themselves up and enter combat and cast offensive damage/debuff spells in melee. The bard boosts other characters as much as itself, and focuses on skills over casting.

I still see no reason that any class needs more than 6/level base slots. And I've played with Duskblades who used a spell nearly every turn of every fight (often swift ones or weapon channelling). I never once saw them run out of spells. Never. That tells me the class gets too many.

If the duskblade has too many slots, then all full casters certainly have too many. If you're making a partial caster, you have one simple choice: Do you give them fewer spells overall, as with the bard, paladin, and ranger, or do you give them around the same number but shifted towards the lower levels? Due to the duskblade's channeling ability, the latter was almost mandatory; besides, you'll note that the duskblade is the only class to take that approach, and is also the only partial caster that anyone uses for a standalone gish--when was the last time you saw someone take paladin or ranger to even mid levels and use its casting as an integral component of their build?

Well, yes. That's a given. What I meant though, was that even at his primary function of being a blaster, the Warmage is simply inferior to Sorc and Wizard (Evoker, in this case). When you add to that the fact that blasting is an inferior method of spellcasting anyway, especially as your only schtick, and Warmage becomes one of the few full casters that I might actually seriously label as "weak."

My point was that this existing weakness was exacerbated by the warmage's lack of access to some of the best blasting spells. A warmage with even the five spells Dandu mentioned on its list can begin to match a sorcerer at blasting (though obviously nothing else), but as long as it's limited to orb of X and metamagic'd fireballs, it's going to suck.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

My point was that this existing weakness was exacerbated by the warmage's lack of access to some of the best blasting spells. A warmage with even the five spells Dandu mentioned on its list can begin to match a sorcerer at blasting (though obviously nothing else), but as long as it's limited to orb of X and metamagic'd fireballs, it's going to suck.

Well then, I agree. The Sudden Metamagic feats were a joke, and Edge is not nearly enough to make blasting scary. Warmage should have gotten class features to shred through energy resistances, ignore immunties x times/day, admix two diferent energy type spells with a single action and get some sort of cool synergistic effect on top of getting the double cast, and/or other fun unique blaster-themed stuff.

And if WotC is going to print stuff like Avasculate and Maw of Chaos that just completely outclasses blasting spells, the least they could do is either add it to the Warmage list or make them Evocations, so the Warmage can pick them up at a reasonable level.