Game Balance - A Study in Imperfection (forked)

[Fifth Element]

Dry or not, setting things on fire unless they are already burning is time honored adventuring tactic.

I've never seen something being on fire act as a deterrant to PCs setting it on fire some more.

- "Actually I was trying to soak it in alcohol so's I could light it on fire better."

On the money.

 

[ExploderWizard]

That's kind of my point- players who routinely use knowledge their PC has no reason to know can be quite disruptive...so I have no problem with DMs who crack down on that kind of behavior.

A creative quick thinking DM can foil player assumptions. Back during my old 2E campaign the PC's were picking on a tribe of vegepygmies. They followed a group of them to a stone altar in the middle of a ruined city. The vegepygmies left an offering to thier "god" upon the altar. The PC's laughed at them and took the offering which was a large sack of onions.
The PC's proceeded to smash the onions and laugh at the poor vegepygmy worshippers. They "knew" that even the chieftain was no match for even one of them.

The celebration was cut short when the vegepygmy god showed up. It was basically an old 1E type I demon with extra hit dice and a giant green onion for a head. I created the onion god out of thin air just for the shock effect.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I've never seen something being on fire act as a deterrant to PCs setting it on fire some more.

Really though? If your players were attacked by a fire elemental they would try and set it on fire?

IT CAN'T IGNORE THAT KIND OF DAMAGE FOREVER!!

 

[Fifth Element]

Really though? If your players were attacked by a fire elemental they would try and set it on fire?

It can't ignore that kind of damage forever!!

You just have to burn through its resistance first!!!

 

[billd91]

Nah, there's also "situations they hear about". Damn near everyone in Western civilization knows you need silver (often in the form of a bullet) to kill a werewolf, and I guarantee this is not a situation we have all encountered.

Yes, but mass media can be VERY effective at transmitting stories. Before mass media, I'm sure you'd have plenty of people not even knowing what the word werewolf refers to and a lot more inconsistency among those who had heard of the word.

How a PC might know about the alcohol thing:
- "I figured it might be some kind of plant-monster, and we all know how you get sap out of wool..."
- "Actually I was trying to soak it in alcohol so's I could light it on fire better."
- "Uncle Bob told me he could sell his hooch for a whole gold coin if he labeled it 'Roper Tentacle Cure'. I guess this is why."

It's true. They might know bits based on fairly spotty forms of information exchange. It's one reason I liked the addition of knowledge checks to know what a monster is, what it can do. The random element does a fair job of incorporating that spotty info exchange that you'd likely have in a typical fantasy environment.

I always thought that basing the DC on the HD of the creature was weird, though. I'd have gone with some indication of frequency and/or notoriety rather than power. Though Pathfinder still includes an element of the creature's power (CR), it does include modification for the general rarity of the creature. So that makes me a bit happier.

 

[Fifth Element]

Yes, but mass media can be VERY effective at transmitting stories. Before mass media, I'm sure you'd have plenty of people not even knowing what the word werewolf refers to and a lot more inconsistency among those who had heard of the word.

Applying real-world logic to a fantasy setting can lead to strange results. In a world where werewolves are actually real, I'm sure more people would know how to deal with them. In a world with wizards who can communicate with each other over miles and miles, communication would be a fish of a different colour.

 

[Ariosto]

That's always been a D&D cliche that I've found slightly mystifying. If the player, who plays D&D as a hobby, know that a mummy is vulnerable to fire, why wouldn't the character, whose life depends on knowing how to fight monsters?

It's a cliché of the "thespian" clique, those who somehow mistake a *g*a*m*e* for Masterpiece Theatre.

It was clearly no expectation in 1974, when the very first published rule-book advised

A quick check of some rule or table may bring hidden treasure or save your game "life".

However, by 1976 (Supplement III) it was clear that

somewhere along the line, D&D lost some of its flavor, and began to become predictable. ... When all the players had all the rules in front of them, it became next to impossible to beguile them into danger or mischief.

And so, Gygax called the Advanced D&D Dungeon Masters Guide "the exclusive precinct of the DM".

Peeping players there will undoubtedly be, but they are simply lessening their own enjoyment of the game by taking away the sense of wonder that otherwise arises from a game which has rules hidden from participants.

I'm not sure whether the DMG mentions it, or what rule applied in the tournaments at GenCon and Origins, but as I recall it was customary for players not to have access to the Monster Manual during an actual session of play.

Real experience and skill gained in play would in due course distinguish old hands from novices.

Other experienced players will have no characters, but they will have useful knowledge of the game which puts them apart from true novices. ... Experienced players without existing characters should generally be brought into the campaign at a level roughly equal to the average of that of the other player characters ... After all, they are not missing out on anything, as they have already played beginning character roles elsewhere ...

On the other hand,

The inexperienced player should be allowed the joy of going on a dungeon adventure as a neophyte. You will recall how much fun it was when you didn't really know what was going on or which monster was which or how to do anything but loved every second of it! Throwing a green player into a group of veteran AD&Ders destroys all hope of that, for the inexperienced player will be suppressed or repressed or both.

The way to surprise experienced players is with new monsters and magic, and more cunning tricks and traps. Someone who has played for years might sometimes choose to make a bad move because it's "in character" -- but trying to push people into that position is obnoxious.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Applying real-world logic to a fantasy setting can lead to strange results. In a world where werewolves are actually real, I'm sure more people would know how to deal with them. In a world with wizards who can communicate with each other over miles and miles, communication would be a fish of a different colour.

On top of that, anyone who has studied folklore (even tangentially) cannot help but note how common themes and ideas come up despite vast distances in both location and era.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Someone who has played for years might sometimes choose to make a bad move because it's "in character" -- but trying to push people into that position is obnoxious.

This.

(See, if I could give XP to Ariosto again, I'd have done it, and this post would not be necessary.)

RC

 

[Votan]

Applying real-world logic to a fantasy setting can lead to strange results. In a world where werewolves are actually real, I'm sure more people would know how to deal with them. In a world with wizards who can communicate with each other over miles and miles, communication would be a fish of a different colour.

I try to aruge by analogy. Poeple who live in environments with dangerous critters tend to haves ome idea of how to avoid them. Think about peiople who live near snakes, alligators, bears, poisonous spiders etc . . .

So if the creature is completely exotic then they are in deep trouble. But they will have some idea of the key issues with things that are either memorable or local. If they have never seen a Roper (and neitehr has anyone else) then that is cool. But were creatures being vulnerable to silver is pretty basic.

I would, likely, playing a peasant type becoming a warrior in 3E, randomize whether I used silver or cold iron versus a demon (having no good way to know which is actually effective and devils looking awful similar).