Astral Seal = The Most Broken Ability

[Aulirophile]

If the Cleric uses Astral Seal in most turns, the party lacks one damage dealer. In a large party with several strikers, that's not much of an issue, but in a small 3 PC party that would prolong the fight by several turns. And a longer fight means more time for the monsters to do damage, so it evens out.

If you consider the effect over several encounters between extended rests, it means that the party will have more healing surges left over. Unless your party runs out of healing surges often, that doesn't make a difference. It makes no difference whether you go from 4 healing surges to full or from 1 healing surge to full.

Another issue with Astral Seal, and all other temp-hp granting at-wills for that matter, is scaling. PCs start with around 30 hp and go up to at least 150 or even 300 at 30th level. To scale properly, Astral Seal would have to grant at least 5 times as many hp at 30th level. Let's see: A level 1 Cleric can grant 2+Wis+Cha, so with Wis 18 and Cha 16 that's 9 hp. At 30th level, the same Cleric would have to grant at least 45 hp to keep up with scaling. Even with a 26 Cha and a 24 Wis, he's only at 17 hp. He would need to add some 30 hp healing to make up for the gap.

The effect of scaling is that at 1st level, Astral Seal is very good, but its usefulness gets less with every level as the amount of healing you hand out is less and less compared to a PC's total hp and the damage dealt by monsters. And even with a dedicated healer build that effect is hard to counter.

Just wanted to point out there is no way a PC is going to have 300 HP. Con-Wardens, the highest HP class in the game, barely break 260.

Not sure on your math their either. An optimized Healic will have 18/18 wis/cha. Demigod+Stat bumps can make that 28/28, resulting in +2+9+9. Healer's Implement, +6. Beatific Healer (+cha again) +9. That is +35. Healer's Brooch could add another 6. So +41 HP healed.

The solution is of course dominating monsters. Astral Seal the striker, then beat on him.

 

[keterys]

If the Cleric uses Astral Seal in most turns, the party lacks one damage dealer.

And the damage dealers they have hit more often. -2 to defenses is a big deal. For example, let's consider an 8th level party for a moment. Let's say it's a party of five with a Str paladin (1d10+11 Holy Strike), Invoker (1d8+8 Sun Strike), Sorcerer (1d10+14 Chaos Bolt), and Rogue (1d4+2d8+11 Sly Flourish).

Cleric Sacred Flame damage: 1d6 + 8 (avg 11.5)

So, if they've got a 50% chance to hit (cause it makes the math easy), the entire rest of the party's avg damage is (16.5+12.5+19.5+22.5 = 71), and Astral Seal boosts their chance to hit by 20% (50% hit to 60% hit), as if the cleric had done an attack that dealt 14.2 damage.

So, Astral Seal just did more damage than Sacred Flame, in that instance.

It also has +2 attack over Sacred Flame, so is more likely to hit. And if you do it multiple rounds in a row, you end up needing 4 less on the die to hit (-2 def plus +2 attack) which makes it a lot easier to maintain.

If you've got people using encounter powers or action points, or anything else that is going to deal more than their at-will damage, then it's even more compellingly in Astral Seal's favor.

And that's all while ignoring the amount of healing it gives, which is a very big deal. The 8th level kalashtar pacifist cleric I grouped with yesterday in a party similar to that one healed _15_ with his Astral Seal. My invoker had 50 hp, so yeah, that's pretty serious.

I'd be less worried about Astral Seal at epic, but it's bad enough at heroic that it's worth talking about.

Anyhow, just wanted to point out that trying to come to its defense because it doesn't do damage is, perhaps, not really considering that the healing is just one part of what the power actually does, and that in a lot of parties it does _more_ damage than other options. In fact, its damage potential grows with level much like its healing potential decreases.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

And the damage dealers they have hit more often. -2 to defenses is a big deal. For example, let's consider an 8th level party for a moment. Let's say it's a party of five with a Str paladin (1d10+11 Holy Strike), Invoker (1d8+8 Sun Strike), Sorcerer (1d10+14 Chaos Bolt), and Rogue (1d4+2d8+11 Sly Flourish).

Cleric Sacred Flame damage: 1d6 + 8 (avg 11.5)

So, if they've got a 50% chance to hit (cause it makes the math easy), the entire rest of the party's avg damage is (16.5+12.5+19.5+22.5 = 71), and Astral Seal boosts their chance to hit by 20% (50% hit to 60% hit), as if the cleric had done an attack that dealt 14.2 damage.

So, Astral Seal just did more damage than Sacred Flame, in that instance.

It also has +2 attack over Sacred Flame, so is more likely to hit. And if you do it multiple rounds in a row, you end up needing 4 less on the die to hit (-2 def plus +2 attack) which makes it a lot easier to maintain.

If you've got people using encounter powers or action points, or anything else that is going to deal more than their at-will damage, then it's even more compellingly in Astral Seal's favor.

And that's all while ignoring the amount of healing it gives, which is a very big deal. The 8th level kalashtar pacifist cleric I grouped with yesterday in a party similar to that one healed _15_ with his Astral Seal. My invoker had 50 hp, so yeah, that's pretty serious.

I'd be less worried about Astral Seal at epic, but it's bad enough at heroic that it's worth talking about.

Anyhow, just wanted to point out that trying to come to its defense because it doesn't do damage is, perhaps, not really considering that the healing is just one part of what the power actually does, and that in a lot of parties it does _more_ damage than other options. In fact, its damage potential grows with level much like its healing potential decreases.

Not only that, but all of these analysis ignore the second-order effect of healing. That is that the character receiving the healing STAYS UP and can continue to do damage. Yes, Astral Seal MAY do less damage in the more direct sense that Keterys is talking about than say Sacred Brand but because the fight goes longer the damage dealers get to drop in more damage in those extra rounds, which means in the long run a party deploying Astral Seal will virtually always end up with more hit points and surges left at the end of the fight than a party which deploys Sacred Brand etc.

Now, couple that with Keterys' point above that Astral Seal actually in a lot of cases does as much damage as Sacred Brand and you will begin to see the issue with this power. The effect may decrease somewhat at very high levels, but it is still there. What ends up happening is that the less challenging encounters go from being attrition where they at least chip away at the party's surges to being basically futile exercises if you have a decent healing build cleric that is smart enough to just stick with Astral Seal in these encounters.

Another factor is the asymmetric nature of the damage done to a party. if most of it tends to come down on the defender and certain melee strikers then it may pass the rate at which Astral Seal can restore it. If the monsters instead start trying to ALSO deal damage to the leader, that just spreads things out and actually makes Astral Seal MORE effective. This is a lot more typical tactical situation than the one where the monsters are simply free to decide to pile all their damage on any one specific party member.

Plus in the final analysis Astral Seal is only one at-will power. In those tactical situations where it is NOT worth using you simply ignore it and its no big deal. The overall effect is the power adds quite a bit to total party resiliency over an adventuring day. I'm not really a big fan. Recovery Strike is a bit tamer and overall probably is a wash, but Astral Seal used at maximum effectiveness is a problem.

 

[Iron Sky]

Wait till you get to level 6 and he picks up Consecrated Ground.

With a wave of your hand, jagged lines of radiant light spread across the ground around you like a crackling web, moving at your whim. Enemies that stand upon this ground suffer the wrath of your deity.
Daily

Divine, Healing, Radiant, Zone
Standard Action Close burst 1
Effect: The burst creates a zone of sanctified ground that lasts until the end of your next turn. You can move the origin square of the zone 3 squares as a move action. Enemies that start their turns within the zone take 1d6 + your Charisma modifier radiant damage. You and any allies who are bloodied and start their turns within the zone regain hit points equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.
Sustain Minor: The zone persists.


Heal keyword, so all bloodied allies gain 1+4+4 (standard 18/18 wis/cha array for a Healic), +Healers Implement should add a couple. But a dying creature is still bloodied. So unless you die, you'll heal at the start of your turn no matter how low you get, from 0. So long as a party stays in the zone no normal encounter should be able to kill them. Ever. Including the Cleric. Zone lasts till EoNT, he gets healed at start of turn, sustains, everything is okey-dokey. Only thing he has to worry about is stun.

To the question: Eh, Astral Seal isn't any more/less abuseable then other stuff. It just makes fights take longer, which I actually think makes it kinda suck.

This power got busted out in my game last night. The cleric in it got taken down three times while in the zone and kept getting up the next round, only to be taken down again (the monsters even used coup-de-gras on him, but couldn't do enough damage to take him out completely and were taking a pounding from the Warden and Consecrated Ground itself).

Our cleric uses Astral Seal as his bread-and-butter. In my experience, the -2 makes the difference between hitting and missing at least once per fight and the heal triggered is often useful (though some times it is triggered by someone who is already full or mostly full, no one targets the monster the cleric went for, or everyone misses in spite of the -2 so it is wasted).

Just wanted to point out there is no way a PC is going to have 300 HP. Con-Wardens, the highest HP class in the game, barely break 260.

Our Goliath Warden is going to have 268-270 hp at 30. He started with 18 Con, took the Dreadnaught PP(getting 10 hp), Toughness, and is raising Con every time. He'll have 268 or 270 at Epic, depending on his Epic Destiny (Demigod Con would make it 270).

 

[Jools]

Time to go in the cupboard and pull out the nerf-hammer...

 

[kaomera]

Time to go in the cupboard and pull out the nerf-hammer...

lol, seriously? Astral Seal is exactly what a leader (especially one as healing-focused as the Cleric) is supposed to be doing. Yes, it's a good power; there are definitely worse ones available. But IMO it's not overly powerful by any stretch of the imagination...

 

[Aulirophile]

Our Goliath Warden is going to have 268-270 hp at 30. He started with 18 Con, took the Dreadnaught PP(getting 10 hp), Toughness, and is raising Con every time. He'll have 268 or 270 at Epic, depending on his Epic Destiny (Demigod Con would make it 270).

Forgot about Dreadnaught. The max without is 263 (28 con, toughness, Warden). 273 with it. Still not close to 300.

 

[Mengu]

Forgot about Dreadnaught. The max without is 263 (28 con, toughness, Warden). 273 with it. Still not close to 300.

Warden starting with 20 strength (30 at epic), Auspicious Birth, Toughness, Fighter MC, Dreadnought, and a Brooch of Vitality +6 sits at 295, is that close to 300? That's about all I could cheese out. He can also have 15 temp hit points at the end of each rest with Lifeblood Armor +6, starting each encounter with 310.

More on topic Astral Seal probably wouldn't be too bad if it granted temp hit points instead of healing, and also if it did 1 point of damage.

 

[Flipguarder]

If we count temp hp.

Warden 28 con, windrise ports, toughess, brooch of vitality +6, dreadnought, Lorekeeper ED, Fighter + runepriest MC, Acolyte power Take Rune of hero's resolve.

Level 30 it becomes an encounter power and BOOM

293 hp, and at the beginning of every encounter your first minor action is spent doubling your current hp with the extra all being temp hp.

So basically every encounter you have 586 hp to burn trhough.

 

[Destil]

Time to go in the cupboard and pull out the nerf-hammer...

Eh, the only time seal is really a problem is the stupid amount of +healing feats/items/powers wizards has thrown out that can boost it. If I were nerfing it I'd not let anything but healing lore increase it, but in exchange let any one person who hits choose to heal (delaying to get the healing hopefully on the right person is a huge pain in the ass and unnecessary bookeeping).