Monks & Weapons & Powers, oh my

[Dannyalcatraz]

There's no such thing as a "monk weapon" in 4e.

Yeah, I know, but I'm stuck with the terminology...at least for the weapons they're initially granted proficiency in.

Besides:

There are weapons the monk is proficient with -- but a monk can use any implement they're proficient with as an implement -- not some limited list of "monk weapons"

The problem remains- the monk can use any weapon they're proficient with as an implement...but cannot deliver all of their powers- even the implement ones- with any weapon. At least, not using the weapon to its full capacity- a monk proficient with a reach or ranged weapon cannot deliver a monk power's effects at reach or range. THAT is ugly. The rules for weapons shouldn't excise the ability to use a reach weapon with monk powers at the fullest extent of the weapon's reach.

Especially in the light of RW monks who routinely use reach or ranged weapons as part of their martial styles- spears, polearms, chain weapons and shuriken are all common in martial arts, and are used to their fullest capacity by those trained in their use.

Yet a 4Ed monk can't deliver a single monk power at reach/range. Blech.

Someone asserted upthread that Jackie Chan (and other movie martial artists) can kick your butt with a sword or a chair, something that the 4Ed rules model well since the powers don't use the [W] designation for damage. Continuing that analogy, you'll note that he'll often throw things like jugs, footstools etc., or will swing around a large improvised weapon like a ladder to attack foes in a large swath around him- yet in 4Ed, Jackie loses efficacy by attempting to do so, because the powers don't support those actions.

So a monk that wanted to make a partial reach build could and take mostly powers with a range of Melee Touch and multiclass into Avenger

The monk shouldn't have to muiticlass to use a weapon to its fullest potential.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Someone asserted upthread that Jackie Chan (and other movie martial artists) can kick your butt with a sword or a chair, something that the 4Ed rules model well since the powers don't use the [W] designation for damage. Continuing that analogy, you'll note that he'll often throw things like jugs, footstools etc., or will swing around a large improvised weapon like a ladder to attack foes in a large swath around him- yet in 4Ed, Jackie loses efficacy by attempting to do so, because the powers don't support those actions.

But the monk powers do support those actions. Read the monk powers. Look at the effects of these powers and describe them accordingly.

 

[Artoomis]

But the monk powers do support those actions. Read the monk powers. Look at the effects of these powers and describe them accordingly.

Indeed they do. Many of the powers are Jackie Chan inspired moves. It's just that it matters not what weapon you use to deliver them except for feats, et. al.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Not to mention Jackie Chan throwing a bottle or chair etc is considered a Ranged Basic Attack with an Improvised Weapon. Its not Jackie using Cranes Wings to throw a bottle.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But the monk powers do support those actions. Read the monk powers. Look at the effects of these powers and describe them accordingly.

and

Indeed they do. Many of the powers are Jackie Chan inspired moves. It's just that it matters not what weapon you use to deliver them except for feats, et. al.

and

Not to mention Jackie Chan throwing a bottle or chair etc is considered a Ranged Basic Attack with an Improvised Weapon. Its not Jackie using Cranes Wings to throw a bottle.

I'm still slogging through the rules, admittedly, but I haven't seen any usable at range or reach, and as has been asserted upthread, a weapon's attributes don't matter, so the fact that a weapon has reach won't be factored in, so it would seem to me you still have the issue of a reach attack. While he (and other) martial artists of fact and fiction routinely improvise weapons to attack foes outside of arm's length, they also routinely use actual weapons designed to extend the martial artist's reach. Master of the Flying Guillotine, anyone? Shao Lin monks with their iconic longspears? Practitioners of Kung Fu and their halberds?

Not to mention that some martial arts styles- RW and fictional- practice the use of non-standard or improvised weapons: the drinking jug of the Drunken Master, for instance. Or those who actually practice deflecting environmental items on target with specially placed kicks & strikes. If that doesn't depict something more than a basic attack, I don't know what does. Essentially, these forms teach "proficiency" with improvised weapons.

There is a classic clip from Enter the Dragon in which Bruce Lee disarms a O'Hara of his broken bottles, which go flying towards the surrounding observers. Long standing legend has it that the bottles were actually directed at that particular extra who had decried Bruce as being just a movie star with no real "street fighting" skills, and had planned to challenge him. The bottles were a message- received by the extra in question- and if the legend is true, demonstrate a level of skill beyond a mere improvised ranged basic attack.

 

[Artoomis]

and

and


I'm still slogging through the rules, admittedly, but I haven't seen any usable at range or reach, and as has been asserted upthread, a weapon's attributes don't matter, so the fact that a weapon has reach won't be factored in, so it would seem to me you still have the issue of a reach attack. While he (and other) martial artists of fact and fiction routinely improvise weapons to attack foes outside of arm's length, they also routinely use actual weapons designed to extend the martial artist's reach. Master of the Flying Guillotine, anyone? Shao Lin monks with their iconic longspears? Practitioners of Kung Fu and their halberds?

Not to mention that some martial arts styles- RW and fictional- practice the use of non-standard or improvised weapons: the drinking jug of the Drunken Master, for instance. Or those who actually practice deflecting environmental items on target with specially placed kicks & strikes. If that doesn't depict something more than a basic attack, I don't know what does. Essentially, these forms teach "proficiency" with improvised weapons.

There is a classic clip from Enter the Dragon in which Bruce Lee disarms a O'Hara of his broken bottles, which go flying towards the surrounding observers. Long standing legend has it that the bottles were actually directed at that particular extra who had decried Bruce as being just a movie star with no real "street fighting" skills, and had planned to challenge him. The bottles were a message- received by the extra in question- and if the legend is true, demonstrate a level of skill beyond a mere improvised ranged basic attack.

Most of what you are talking about exists (though you might need to add you own flavor text) in existing monk powers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Most of what you are talking about exists (though you might need to add you own flavor text) in existing monk powers.

Then perhaps I need to read a bit more closely, because I'm not seeing it. Not saying you're wrong, just saying I haven't seen such support, and that it may be from a lack of depth in reading the rules.

Any particular examples you could provide for a Reach or ranged monk attack would be greatly appreciated in directing my reading, though.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I'm still slogging through the rules, admittedly, but I haven't seen any usable at range or reach,

OK, let's stop right there. There is a level 1 monk power that extends reach as a stance. There are only 3 blast powers for monks (the first at level 5), but there are a fair amount of close bursts. These can all be accomplished by the use of a number of moves, and they could be throwing nearby objects or knocking them about with one's weapons.

While he (and other) martial artists of fact and fiction routinely improvise weapons to attack foes outside of arm's length, they also routinely use actual weapons designed to extend the martial artist's reach. Master of the Flying Guillotine, anyone? Shao Lin monks with their iconic longspears? Practitioners of Kung Fu and their halberds?

If you want to do this directly, play a martial character. But you can say that this is going on with the monk because of their bonus to AC: they are using their superior abilities to judge the battlefield to defend themselves and sometimes this is done through the use of extended range. This is a role-playing game, play a role.

Not to mention that some martial arts styles- RW and fictional- practice the use of non-standard or improvised weapons: the drinking jug of the Drunken Master, for instance. Or those who actually practice deflecting environmental items on target with specially placed kicks & strikes. If that doesn't depict something more than a basic attack, I don't know what does. Essentially, these forms teach "proficiency" with improvised weapons.

So describe the actions of your character accordingly.

There is a classic clip from Enter the Dragon in which Bruce Lee disarms a O'Hara of his broken bottles, which go flying towards the surrounding observers. Long standing legend has it that the bottles were actually directed at that particular extra who had decried Bruce as being just a movie star with no real "street fighting" skills, and had planned to challenge him. The bottles were a message- received by the extra in question- and if the legend is true, demonstrate a level of skill beyond a mere improvised ranged basic attack.

Here perhaps a feat that allows one to gain proficiency in improvised items would be helpful, because then the monk could use a ranged basic attack (with an excellent dexterity) with the benefit of a ki focus. This would be a monk version of the barbarian feat Improvised Missile. But this is not something that is central to every monk.

 

[DracoSuave]

Monks are pure martial artists?

I thought that was the brawler fighter.

I actually was operating under the assumption monks were combatants that used psionic magic to extend the normal capabilities of their body in blows that were otherwise impossible for man to perform.

Silly me.

 

[mysticknight232]

Don't forget that the Monk is an implement based class and not a weapon based class. That's why the weapon properties don't matter, including reach. You could use a magical ki focus and still use a plain old spear for example and gain the benefit of the Pointed Step Style feat, or a magical ki focus and use a club for the other feat. Likewise, you could make your shuriken or dagger your implement and throw it and it won't matter. If it's non-magical, you don't gain any Implement benefits from it anyway and you can recover it at the end of battle. If it's magical, it returns to your hand at the end of the attack any way per the rules of thrown/launched magical weapons.

As far as extending the reach of your attacks, it's my understanding that Melee Touch is as far as you get. 1 square or that which you can touch. Melee Touch is not extendable. If it is, please show me where it says it can be. If you're talking about a reach weapon, it has no bearing on the powers that are Melee Touch, only the Melee 1 or Burst/Blast X powers. Not to mention that "Reach" is a property of the weapon anyway, which again has no bearing on Monk Implement attacks therefore it's a moot point in this thread unless you're using it to make a MBA, in which case the properties of the weapon will apply, such as proficiency bonus and reach if your weapon has that and you're proficient with it.

I Monk is a very unique class because it's a Melee Implement based class. Most of the weapon rules do not apply to the Monk other than knowing if they are proficient with that weapon or not for purposes of wielding it.

Edit: As a side note, Monks are Psionic and do not deal "weapon" dmg. Instead they convey dmg as magical energy generated by their mind, body and soul as focused through their Ki and passed along through their weapons (an unarmed melee strike is treated the same way). My Monk wields a Spear, but i never run my opponent through with his Spear. Instead i am merely "touching" him in various points along his anatomy in order to transfer my magical energy or dmg. My Spear is a conduit for the dmg i deal, it does not generate the dmg itself.

If you make a MBA on the other hand, you are using the weapon to deal the dmg. In that case, i would be trying to run my opponent through with the head of the spear since i am not focusing my Ki on my attack, i am using my natural abilities (Str for a MBA) to try to deal dmg. Hopefully this clears up some confusion about Monks and their "weapons".