D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[Iceman]

Sounds like a great tactical encounter.

A few minor rules things came up:

Imagine an open door in a wall. Attacker is in the square on one side, defender is in the square in the other. Attacker hits with a power that lets him slide the defender one square. Can he slide the target through the doorway and then laterally one square – effectively a diagonal move around a corner? Can O slide X to square S?

We ruled that yes, he can. And I think that's right, since you can forced move a target to a square you have line-of-effect to, and you do have LoE to a square around a corner.

As I understand 4E, you cannot. You can only forced-movement someone into a square that they could move to on their own, which is why you can slide, pull or push enemies through other enemies. But since they cannot move diagonally around that 'hard corner' in 1 square of movement normally, they cannot be forced to do so by a slide.
(( It's one of the reasons I've been told you cannot pull or push someone vertically in order to do falling damage - aside from sheer cheesiness. ))

Also, I don't see any reason a Dazed creature can't use an Action Point to get two actions in a turn, but I can't find a rule that specifically addresses it.

Yes. Dazed does not prevent free actions, of which an AP is one.

It's also something you can do after a charge, for what it's worth.

Is it kosher to fire attacks through arrow slits if you're not right next to them? We decided that it was, though the creatures on the other side of the wall have superior cover.

DM's call, to a certain extent, about whether the slits have any special restrictions (no more than 5 squares away, for instance).
But as a generic 'murder hole' position, sure, fire away against, yes, their superior cover. And possible concealment too.

Finally, I wanted opinions on the Stealth ritual (“Traveler's Camouflage”) we've been using. Are we allowed to use it for sneaking up on people, before initiative has been rolled?

The question this raises in my mind is: does “travel” mean any movement outside of combat, or did they really intend this ritual only for actual overland travel? If the former, it's a pretty powerful effect for a Level 1 Ritual that only costs 10 GP, lasts 10 hours, and is likely to net either a +5 or +10 bonus to Stealth checks.

I would rule that you could use it for positioning prior to combat, no problem. 'Travel' is a bit ambiguous but some feats, like Light Step, do specify overland travel vs tactical movement. If you can take that as a precedent to apply to this case.

But, as it says, you lose the bonus the moment you roll Init. So you're first attack might not have CA (barring cool rogue abilities) since they likely see you as the ritual fades.
Heck, one could argue you lose your surprise round because they see you the moment you try to attack. But that's a harder case to adjudicate from here.

Cheers.
-VIC

 

[Piratecat]

And thanks to Sagiro, our run list!

1. [LEVEL 1] Crocodile trolling; light in swamp spotted
2. Investigating the Dog Gobblers; fight with the "doll."
3. Fights with Dog Gobblers; about to descend to their lair
4. Defeating the Gobbler king and rescuing the halfling baby
5. Discover the submerged weapon tower; enemy force approaching!
6. [LEVEL 2] Tower Defense Part 1 - defeated Sarothic, exploded a barrel
7. Tower Defense Part 2 - War God vs. Dragon. Alene departs.
8. Battle at the Floodford Armory
9. Floodford Armory Part 2; saving the mayor from his treacherous adviser
10. [LEVEL 3] Interrogating Scrit by the river.
11. Off to the Bubbling Fens; fight against the lizard "party" + stirges
12. Finding Aline's camp; fight "Weed of Sklar"; meet gargoyle; into hut
13. Weedy prison; free Xiras and destroy Dragon; fleeing the Tide of Sklar
14. Returning Xiras; fight against the Gargoyle
15. [Level 4] Introduce Bramble; entering Aleph's crypt
16. Forced through Cobblestones; WISC; learn of Alpeh's return(s)
17. Big fight vs. Myconids
18. Dash through the streets; boss fight vs. Aline; Pikeline and others killed
19. Battle with Nils Riverlimb & Co.; Strontium escapes the Claws of the Librarian
20. [Level 5] Battle with the Kenku assassins sent to kill Bramble.
21. Animated objects attack in the Tower basement!
22. Approach to Mudtunnel; fight against Bullywugs
23. Mudtunnel murder investigation; drunk Grey Guardsmen; mirrors bad!
24. Approach Bressail; fought "Beloved of Bullywugs": in current
25. [Level 6] Convinced the Necromancer to leave town
26. Battle in the sewers; huge explosion; chased down a halfling wizard type
27. Battle against carrion crawlers and 1st half of beholder fight
28. Fled from beholder; Toiva died; learned Logan's tragic backstory
29. Return to the Beholder! Kicked ass with movement-inhibitors. Gilran intro.
30. [Level 7] Reymos makes Logan an offer, then sends assassins to kill him
31. The Empire Strikes Back; tree-port into the palace to rescue Logan's friend.
32. Skill challenge into the throne room, avoiding combat. Rescued friend.
33. Party temporarily split; another Kenku assassin targets Bramble.
34. Grey Guard sneaks onto the wall, storms guard house, opens city gate!

----------

The players aren't aware of it, but what they're doing is factoring into a large skill challenge entitled "how screwed are the people of Bressail?" It's fair to say that opening up that gate counts as a success.

According to the General they spoke to, the Caprian Empire made sure their forces were ready before closing on the newly rebellious province. Skadderlin might be invading from the north, Croghan from the east and southeast, and Imperial marines from the southwest. It looks like they're trying to cut off any angle of retreat for refugees, presumably intending to enslave the population in retaliation for their duke's decision to rebel. If the inhabitants of Bressail can't get out of the city before dusk when the colossus advances, however, there are going to be a lot fewer people trying to escape.

So there are a number of difficult decisions that I think the PCs can choose to take part in. As politically neutral Grey Guards, how much do they get involved? Where do they think refugees should head? Is it possible to forestall or lessen the Empire's retaliation for Duke Tordon's rebellion? Even though we're at the edge of the Empire and are still at Heroic levels, I'm working to give the group a feel for the larger world. I'm really glad they're politically neutral, because it means that their decisions are all about saving other people, not themselves.

On a logistical note, I really wanted to drag Cobalt through that door. When they asked about the rule, I had to pull the "but I'd have let you do it!" card, and everyone agreed with extremely good grace. Thanks, guys! If I was going to replay this, I'd say "it's an unusually wide door, so it can happen here but not on narrower, more normal doorways."

 

[coyote6]

Finally, I wanted opinions on the Stealth ritual (“Traveler's Camouflage”) we've been using. Are we allowed to use it for sneaking up on people, before initiative has been rolled? By the letter of the law, it seems that yes, yes we can, though you can't rely on the ritual to give you stealth FOR the attack:

"You cloak yourself and any allies present for the ritual in a camouflaging shroud. The subjects of this ritual gain a bonus to Stealth checks while traveling, and other creatures take a penalty when using Perception to find your tracks."
...

“This camouflage protects you and your allies as you travel, but not during battle. Any subject who rolls initiative or makes an attack roll loses the benefit of this ritual until the end of the encounter. If a subject is hidden when he or she makes an attack, that subject loses the bonus before making the attack roll, which could cause him or her to lose the benefit of being hidden for that attack.”

The question this raises in my mind is: does “travel” mean any movement outside of combat, or did they really intend this ritual only for actual overland travel? If the former, it's a pretty powerful effect for a Level 1 Ritual that only costs 10 GP, lasts 10 hours, and is likely to net either a +5 or +10 bonus to Stealth checks.

The RAW is as soon as you attack or roll initiative, so you should probably be fine -- but does 4e specify when you roll initiative? I.e., does it say, "when one or both sides see the other" or anything like that?

I think there have been a few threads on "when do you roll initiative" and some people might say that if you're maneuvering tactically (to sneak into position to attack from), you should be rolling initiative. And then the ritual wouldn't help. I can sort of see that argument, especially given how cheap and easy the ritual is -- but I'm not sure.

If it is usable to sneak up on someone before attacking, the ritual was clearly named by a marketing department worried about combat-ritual regulations -- it should be called "Ambusher's Camouflage".

 

[the Jester]

My group has used that ritual before too. I think they avoided a couple of random encounters with it. Hurray for good ritual use!

 

[Sagiro]

Run #35 was a couple of nights ago. Here are some thoughts, which Piratecat and others should feel free to augment and/or correct:

Plot-wise, we had just succeeded in opening one gate out of the soon-to-be-destroyed city. (You may recall that the rebellious and cowardly Duke Torden had ordered the doomed city sealed, before he himself fled via teleport.) Our priorities were now getting word to both Logan's and Caldwell's families, that they could now get out of the city. Beyond that, we wanted to a) spread the word generally that fleeing would be a good idea, and b) get another gate or two open if we could, before leaving ourselves.

We stopped first at Logan's house (no problems) and then hoofed it to Caldwell's. That's when we hit trouble. Cultists of Vodis (God of Destruction) were taking advantage of the chaos to light fires, and some were in the midst of torching Caldwell's small mansion. (One seemed to have a personal vendetta against Doc – it sounded like Doc had performed some experimental surgery on the cultist's sister at some time in the past. Before we could go rescue the family, we had to deal with the Cultists outside. Some notes from, and regarding, the battle:

• I made use of my Casque of Tactics to swap my 26 Init with Caldwell's 24, since he was at the front of the group and charging. That turned out to let Doc go first, since the cultist leader went on 25.
  
• The battle seemed to be going very well early; we rushed the main bad guy and knocked out some minions. And we took down the main guy in the first round or two.
  
• Sadly for us, it turned out that the cultists' bodies were gateways for demons, which ripped their way out of the humans' corpses. Oops! Basically it was a two-wave fight, where the second wave was hiding in the bodies of the first wave. PCat told us afterward that some of the damage we did to the original cultists carried over to the demons.
  
• The bad guys had a dazing attack. %$! My rogue, as well as the wizard, were dazed for 2-3 rounds each due to poor saving throws.
  
• Even so, we were really piling on the status effects, as we concentrated on the main demon. At various times he was blinded, slowed, incapable of shifting, and given penalties to attack. Still, he soaked up a lot of damage, and he knocked Caldwell unconscious before the fight was over.
  
• A note on status effects generally: I have probably mentioned that I use a whiteboard to assist Piratecat. The board is large, and has a section for each character and each bad guy. I've developed a short(ish) hand for noting status effects. For example, when I hit the main cultist with Imperiling Strike, I wrote down “-3 AC and Ref (Cob),” where the last thing I write is when it will end. “Cob” meant it would end on Cobalt's next turn. I use (S) for “Save Ends” effects.
  
  Now, being a semi-OCD stat nerd, I really enjoy keeping all of the info on the board, and alerting people when it's relevant. But not every group is going to have someone like me, and occasionally I miss something, since I also am trying to stay involved in the role-playing and the tactical situation and Pcat's wonderfully gruesome descriptions of our enemies and their abilities. The amount of tracking can be daunting, and it's a legitimate gripe about 4E, I think, even though it bothers me not at all.
  
• A personal note about Cobalt in this battle. Even though I spent two rounds dazed, I was able to gain Combat Advantage on every turn in this fight, either due to actual flanking, the enemy having effects like blind and dazed, or the use of Adaptable Flanker (which I adore.) As a 7th level rogue, I have a natural +13 to hit, which goes to +16 with CA (Nimble Blade feat), and a +19 with CA and using an Action Point (Action Surge feat). I'll often save my Action Point action for when I really want to hit. In this battle, I did exactly that, where having a +19 pretty much guaranteed a hit. Of course, I rolled a “1.” Okay, fine, but I still had my normal action, which still has a +16 to hit. I rolled another “1.” And that started a run of bad luck, as the next three attack rolls by my party-mates were 2, 2 and 3. Meaning that we had 5 consecutive rolls that, added together, would have been a below-average roll.
  
• Logan's new “cunning rogue” build really shone in this fight. He was a deadly sniper from behind distant cover for pretty much the whole battle.
  
• The Sorcerer Level 7 Encounter power “Spark Form” is fascinating. In effect, it's a shapeable blast power, as the sorcerer shifts his move + 2, can move through enemies, and damages every enemy whose square he leaves. Neat, and very stylish.
  
• Cobalt finished this battle with zero healing surges left, and 22 hit points. And after it was over, he ran into the burning building to rescue Caldwell's family. We had to make Endurance or Athletics checks due to all the smoke, and a failure meant loss of a healing surge – or your surge value, if you were out of them. I failed one check, bringing me down to 9. And after making it upstairs to the master bedroom, we found that his family had already rescued themselves, via the bedsheets-out-the-back-window trick. Ah well.
  
• Whereas last game we fought a difficult battle to get one of the city gates open, our Sorcerer (Gilran) got a second one open with one awe-inspiring skill check. He ran up to the wall like he had every right to be there, and shouted out something like: “Men of Croghan, stand down! By the orders of the Imperial Emperor, the gates must be opened at once!" It required a very difficult Bluff check, but with an assist from the shaman's Spirit and the “Spirit Speaker” Feat, he achieved a 31. The enemies stationed there absolutely believed him, and opened the portcullises. No fighting necessary, and he saved hundreds if not thousands of lives.
  
• At sundown, as threatened, the 250' colossus left the harbor and smashed the city to pieces. Fortunately we were long gone when that happened.
  
• We're leveling up to 8 for next game. Ding!

 

[theskyfullofdust]

I do like how these games feel heroic, even epic, at low levels. I'm learning a lot from these. Thanks

 

[Rechan]

Even though I spent two rounds dazed, I was able to gain Combat Advantage on every turn in this fight, either due to actual flanking,

Dazed condition says you can't flank an enemy, so I would expect that you can't benefit from CA for flanking.

 

[Sagiro]

Dazed condition says you can't flank an enemy, so I would expect that you can't benefit from CA for flanking.

Yup. During the two rounds I was dazed, some power from another party member was causing the bad guy to grant combat advantage to everyone, so I didn't need to flank. Good thing to remember, though.

 

[the Jester]

Dazed condition says you can't flank an enemy, so I would expect that you can't benefit from CA for flanking.

I'll be damned. You learn something new every day.

That'll show me to think I know what the conditions do!

 

[Piratecat]

(One seemed to have a personal vendetta against Doc – it sounded like Doc had performed some experimental surgery on the cultist's sister at some time in the past.

I believe his words were "Do you not even remember all the people whose graves you robbed?" And then Dr. Caldwell stabbed him in the face, which sort of shut down the conversation.

I wanted the "guy changing into a werewolf" feeling as this cultist priest invited an agent of his God into him. To do this I used two sets monsters: one set of stats for the cultist priest (a lvl 9 human hexer, I think) and the human minions, and then after they'd died I broke out stats for a lvl 8 solo demon (a bar igura) and three canoloths. Everything else was special effects, except half the damage they'd inflicted on the initial cultist continued on to the bar igura. That seemed fair.

I really liked the feel of this, and I'll use it in the future for possessions.

I'll note here that the party is now one controller, one leader, two ranged strikers and two melee strikers. Their damage output is prodigious.

As a direct or indirect result of the PCs' actions roughly 25K out of 40K people in Bressail escaped before the Imperial Colossus leveled the city. That's pretty good. If they had never found out that Duke Tordon had cowardly fled, the military would have never ordered the gates open, and no one would have found out that the gates were seized by mercenaries until it was too late. Less than 10K people would have escaped in that case.

Of course, now many thousands of city folks are unarmed and defenseless in the fields around the city, ripe for corralling by the imperial marines swooping in to deliver the traditional punishment for rebellion. The PCs have urged their friends and family to flee to Mudtunnel. It isn't sexy, but it is defensible.