Warlord: Heavy Blade vs. Spear

[cmbarona]

As the title suggests, I'm trying to decide between weapon groups for my Warlord, and I'm interested in hearing people weigh in on the pros and cons of the two weapon groups. More specifically, I'm referring to the Greatspear as part of the debate. I'm interested in comparing it to either the Bastard Sword (comparable damage, but without the reach) or the Longsword (less damage, but that opens a feat slot). I realize this is a more complex question than it first appears, largely due to build dependency.

To give a little context for my specific build: I'm jumping back into a game at 21st level after being out for a while, so I really need to start specializing. I'm an Inspiring Warlord trying to strike a nice balance between offense and defense. The other members of the party are a Chaladin, an Artful Dodger Rogue, and an Infernal/Star Warlock who has decent Eldritch Blasts (hence, I'll be taking Direct the Strike and other powers that try to emphasize the flexibility of Basic Attacks over just MBAs). I'm already planning on taking Vexing Flanker to set up CA on a regular basis and Intuitive Strike to take advantage of that CA. So, a reach weapon would give me greater flexibility, but the reach property could prove useless in tandem with some of my other powers and feats. For example, Lend Might is nice for my build, but useless if I'm not adjacent. I also can't flank for Vexing Flanker if I'm not adjacent. But, reach would allow better use of Direct the Strike since I won't provoke OAs, although since I wouldn't be flanking, I wouldn't provide CA through Vexing Flanker. And although I haven't tried it out myself, I hear reach weapons can be awesomesauce for Warlords... Gah! So many variables!

Anyway, that's just my specific predicament. What do you think about this debate, and what factors should one consider in choosing between the two?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Not easy to answer...
Heavy Blades have the nice +3 prof. bonus you can wield a shield for increased defenses. If your DEX is 15+ you can use HBO to use your at-wills on OAs.
Check out Blade of the Eldritch Knight (AV2 P114) it grants you reach 5 for standard action attacks.


A Great Spear is a spear and a polearm, therefore you have reach and it opens up all those polearm shenanigans. But it requires WIS 15 for polearm gamble, if you like to start pushing people around you would need polearm momentum (WIS and DEX 15 and MC fighter). So it requires many relatively high stats and quite some feats. If you use a Glaive you can even exploit HBO.


The long story short:
Heavy Blades: If you don't want to invest many feats and if you like to stick to STR+CHA.

Polearms/Spears: If you like to mess /w your opponents and if your willing to invest feats+items+ability scores.

 

[Obryn]

It's all about how many feats you want to spend. I'll note, though, that a Warlord has a remarkable number of high-[W] powers, compared to most other Leaders, so those exotic weapons are actually worthwhile for you. I'd say bastard sword would be worth it for you over weapon focus, but just barely.

If you have the feats to spare, I'd go greatspear. With one more feat (Hafted Defense) you will have the equivalent defensive bonuses of a Light Shield, AND reach. Reach, IMO, is worth way more than a single feat. Add a second feat (whose name escapes me...), and you become a super-flanker - you can flank from reach from many different squares, helping you land those buffs even better.

I wouldn't worry too much about Polearm Gamble for a Leader. Yes, it's awesome. No, it's not essential. Still, getting a 15 Wisdom by epic should be fairly easy if you find it worthwhile.

-O

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I think you mean Polearm Flanker (PHB3) for flanking with reach weapons and Hafted Defense is in PHB3 as well both are heroic tier feats.

Not that many feats but then again not the full polearm shenanigans' power/coolness. But it would definitely suffice to make Great Spear a great choice.

Note to myself: Read more PHB3.

 

[Obryn]

I think you mean Polearm Flanker (PHB3) for flanking with reach weapons and Hafted Defense is in PHB3 as well both are heroic tier feats.

Not that many feats but then again not the full polearm shenanigans' power/coolness. But it would definitely suffice to make Great Spear a great choice.

Note to myself: Read more PHB3.

Those would be them! PHB3 added a lot of love for polearms.

I have a greatspear-wielding Ardent in my game, and he gets a lot of mileage out of both.

Oh - as a quick note - your stats work out a little better if you're trying to qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity as opposed to Polearm Gamble. Dexterity is a much better third-stat for an Inspiring Warlord than Wisdom is. (The opposite would be true for a taclord, fwiw.) Wisdom doesn't give you much other than Perception bonuses. Dexterity gives you Reflex and Initiative. (I'd personally still go with Greatspear, but I consider reach weapons that important for a Leader. But Longsword and Bastard Sword are still good choices.)

-O

 

[cmbarona]

To offer a small correction: Polearm Flanker only grants flanking for each attack I make. It doesn't offer similar benefits to teammates via Vexing Flanker, because I wouldn't be considered flanking for my teammates' attacks.

On another note, why is reach "that important" for a leader? I can definitely see how it could be beneficial, but I'm interested in hearing a little more detailed feedback since I've never experienced it myself.

 

[Obryn]

To offer a small correction: Polearm Flanker only grants flanking for each attack I make. It doesn't offer similar benefits to teammates via Vexing Flanker, because I wouldn't be considered flanking for my teammates' attacks.

Right - but it's your attacks that you really, really want to land.

On another note, why is reach "that important" for a leader? I can definitely see how it could be beneficial, but I'm interested in hearing a little more detailed feedback since I've never experienced it myself.

A few pretty big reasons...

(1) It keeps you better defended, and able to hide behind your tanks while still smacking stuff thoroughly. This saves your healing resources for the party, and lets you get away smoothly if your aid is needed across the battlefield.

(2) It gives you added choice of creatures to attack, even while standing still. If you're trying to land something that will give an ally a save or temp HPs or healing, you can pick the lowest-AC opponent to do it.

(3) If you have powers or abilities which affect all allies, you can keep more of them adjacent to you while still attacking. It makes that positioning easier. (Or, for something which helps one adjacent ally, it gives you a lot more possible places to stand.)

(4) If you have powers such as Commander's Strike, the added reach is even more helpful than normal.

(5) It's like having an extra square of movement, when going from one monster to another. It's also like having an extra square of range for your healing (or otherwise) bursts, due to the added positions that are opened up.

It's not a do-or-die sort of thing, mind you, and I don't think sword & board Warlords are crippled or anything. Reach just helps quite a lot, and I consider it more valuable for Leaders than for any other class.

-O

 

[Black Knight Irios]

On another note, why is reach "that important" for a leader? I can definitely see how it could be beneficial, but I'm interested in hearing a little more detailed feedback since I've never experienced it myself.

Reach is useful b/c you don't have to move, sometimes you can't move, sometimes you don't want to and sometimes you don't want to stand in that nasty aura. Reasons are manyfold why you would want to have reach. In the case of most Warlords it is that their attack powers have a reach of "Melee Weapon", if you use a reach weapon your reach has doubled if you use a Blade of the Eldritch Knight it's 5 times as much. Therefore, reach enables some tactics that are otherwise dangerous or impossible.
That being said any heavy blade regardless of enchantment is a good weapon for a Warlord b/c hitting is just that important for most of his powers' riders.

 

[DracoSuave]

Oh - as a quick note - your stats work out a little better if you're trying to qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity as opposed to Polearm Gamble. Dexterity is a much better third-stat for an Inspiring Warlord than Wisdom is.

Except that there are Warlords who have Wisdom as their primary attribute, and no warlord has Dexterity.

 

[Obryn]

Except that there are Warlords who have Wisdom as their primary attribute, and no warlord has Dexterity.

But then you're an archer, and we're not talking about polearms anymore.

I agree, no Warlords have Dexterity as a main attribute. But you can normally at buff two ability scores well, and have a third attribute that's not pitiful. If you're an Inspiring Warlord and your third-best attribute is Dexterity, you're sitting better than an Inspiring Warlord whose third-best attribute is Wisdom, defense-wise.

-O