The Best Tokens/Counters You'll Find Online, I Promise

[BrokenClock]

[No message]

 

[Ahnirades]

Amazing.

Congratulations on a job well done.

 

[gamerprinter]

Most probably because he didn't create the art for the tokens himself, rather he found them online and downloaded them. Now since the project was intended as a gift for a friend, its no big deal, but if he tried to sell them, then he's going to need permission and possibly payment to those artists. If he didn't do this, this would be copyright infringement - a big no no.

If he wanted to do this commercially, not being an artist himself, I'd go find a local art school or college art program and recruit artists to create say 10 or 20 tokens each for minimal pay, and an offer of mention of their names in the final published format (as part of the payment), but then he'd need dozens of artists to do this work - and even at art school wages (very low) it could still mean hundreds of dollars or more.

The only way to do this commercially is to own the art going on the tokens. Not owning the art may be a simple "cease and desist" when the artists found out, or worse, a lawsuit - that makes it definitely not worth the trouble.

GP

PS: while I say its no big deal, because it is a gift for friend, that doesn't mean what he did is not wrong. Its still copyright infringement and in our industry for publishers, authors, illustrators and cartographers - copyright law is all we got to protect us.

PPS: anytime you go to a website that is not yours, and if you "right click and save image as..." you've just committed copyright infringement and that's any website! Some websites grant some free downloading uses (especially for CC licensed art, for example), but that doesn't mean any image is free to download, only those pointed out as so on such a site, and only for non-commerical purposes.

 

[Broken Clock]

Most probably because he didn't create the art for the tokens himself, rather he found them online and downloaded them. Now since the project was intended as a gift for a friend, its no big deal, but if he tried to sell them, then he's going to need permission and possibly payment to those artists. If he didn't do this, this would be copyright infringement - a big no no.

If he wanted to do this commercially, not being an artist himself, I'd go find a local art school or college art program and recruit artists to create say 10 or 20 tokens each for minimal pay, and an offer of mention of their names in the final published format (as part of the payment), but then he'd need dozens of artists to do this work - and even at art school wages (very low) it could still mean hundreds of dollars or more.

The only way to do this commercially is to own the art going on the tokens. Not owning the art may be a simple "cease and desist" when the artists found out, or worse, a lawsuit - that makes it definitely not worth the trouble.

GP

PS: while I say its no big deal, because it is a gift for friend, that doesn't mean what he did is not wrong. Its still copyright infringement and in our industry for publishers, authors, illustrators and cartographers - copyright law is all we got to protect us.

PPS: anytime you go to a website that is not yours, and if you "right click and save image as..." you've just committed copyright infringement and that's any website! Some websites grant some free downloading uses (especially for CC licensed art, for example), but that doesn't mean any image is free to download, only those pointed out as so on such a site, and only for non-commerical purposes.

Actually, I am an artist and I do freelance work for fun. As such, I can tell you this, I now have almost 2000 counters and almost all of them are different images, to contract artists to illustrate over 2000 different illustrations would cost 10s of thousands of dollars, not hundreds. Hell, to do this myself, would take me well over 5 years of constant drawing.

The thing is, Wizards doesn't release quality counters with the artwork they own (and this is important, we will get to this later), because they want you to buy minis. Have you seen the ones they have? Those weird little circle things? They suck.

Now, about this whole 'you're hurting the artist thing'. I have messaged a few of the many artists that drew those monsters and they all told me the same thing; They do not own the art anymore because they gave it to Wizards. The only thing they are allowed to do with it is post it on their portfolio. The ones I talked to, would not give a damn what I did with these counters . . . but Wizards would.

Have I sold the pdfs to these images? Yes, I have. Do I feel I'm hurting the little guy? Not a chance. Would I open up my own website and sell these things on mass? Not bloody likely as that would be pushing my luck. The people who gave me the money for the PDFs would never buy all the minis, because they couldn't afford it. Hell, I can afford it and I don't want them. Can you imagine the storage space required for 2000 minis!?

I've done a lot of searching on the net for good counters. Trust me, I had no interest in spending many hours in Photoshop making official D&D illustrations look good in a mini size on a counter. Sadly, the ones I found I was not pleased with at all. Thus, I made my own and I'm happy to say that it's the best thing to happen to my game since the introduction of my laptop as a DM and these counters are easily the best you'll ever find on the net.

I just thought I would share the process in case people wanted to do the same. It's hardcore geek, but I think I'm in the right place for that.

 

[Klaus]

Actually, I am an artist and I do freelance work for fun. As such, I can tell you this, I now have almost 2000 counters and almost all of them are different images, to contract artists to illustrate over 2000 different illustrations would cost 10s of thousands of dollars, not hundreds. Hell, to do this myself, would take me well over 5 years of constant drawing.

The thing is, Wizards doesn't release quality counters with the artwork they own (and this is important, we will get to this later), because they want you to buy minis. Have you seen the ones they have? Those weird little circle things? They suck.

Now, about this whole 'you're hurting the artist thing'. I have messaged a few of the many artists that drew those monsters and they all told me the same thing; They do not own the art anymore because they gave it to Wizards. The only thing they are allowed to do with it is post it on their portfolio. The ones I talked to, would not give a damn what I did with these counters . . . but Wizards would.

Have I sold the pdfs to these images? Yes, I have. Do I feel I'm hurting the little guy? Not a chance. Would I open up my own website and sell these things on mass? Not bloody likely as that would be pushing my luck. The people who gave me the money for the PDFs would never buy all the minis, because they couldn't afford it. Hell, I can afford it and I don't want them. Can you imagine the storage space required for 2000 minis!?

I've done a lot of searching on the net for good counters. Trust me, I had no interest in spending many hours in Photoshop making official D&D illustrations look good in a mini size on a counter. Sadly, the ones I found I was not pleased with at all. Thus, I made my own and I'm happy to say that it's the best thing to happen to my game since the introduction of my laptop as a DM and these counters are easily the best you'll ever find on the net.

I just thought I would share the process in case people wanted to do the same. It's hardcore geek, but I think I'm in the right place for that.

Your process (minus finding images and on the net and adding in hire an artist) is close enough to Fiery Dragon's own process of putting together the Counter Collections and BattleBoxes: Fiery Dragon » RPG Products

You DO know you can buy over 3000 counter images done by me for less than $35, right?

Fiery Dragon » Counter Collection Digital v3.0


And Fiery Dragon put together a "counter workshop" to help customers that buy and print out their counters from CC Digital.

 

[Broken Clock]

Your process (minus finding images and on the net and adding in hire an artist) is close enough to Fiery Dragon's own process of putting together the Counter Collections and BattleBoxes: Fiery Dragon » RPG Products

You DO know you can buy over 3000 counter images done by me for less than $35, right?

Fiery Dragon » Counter Collection Digital v3.0


And Fiery Dragon put together a "counter workshop" to help customers that buy and print out their counters from CC Digital.

I respect all the work you have done to make those counters. I think it's an amazing feat of dedication and skill. I considered buying them a long time ago, but decided to go with the artwork of the Wizard artists instead. Your counters do not fit the style I was looking for. The quality of illustration between yours and the artwork done by the many artists who worked on the Monster Manuals is very different. Although I'm sure you can produce images much more detailed and interesting than some of those counters, realisticly I know you could never find the same amount of time to spend on each individual image as the Monster Manual artists.

I hope none of that sounded insulting. However, I stick by my subject claim. But I guess it all depends on perspective.

 

[gamerprinter]

I'm not on a witchhunt, but...

I'm not on some kind of witchhunt, but what you're doing is still wrong. I too am a freelance illustrator and cartographer, but I am also a small RPG publisher - and guess what, I pay for all the art that is not my creation. In some cases I paid for single use rights and got a better deal for it, but I've also paid for All Rights Reserved on other stuff, especially cover designs.

I too am all for the little guy, but that doesn't mean I'm against the big guy. Wizards paid All Rights Reserved for their art, so despite the fact that the artists themselves don't feel hurt by what your doing, you are trying to bypass the rights of Wizards and that's copyright infringement.

For the art and cartography that I get commissions from RPG publishers to do for them, I created for them not the whole world - hopefully the publisher gets enough sales that some of the world can appreciate my work, but I usually don't give it away. To me being a professional illustrator and cartographer my reputation is paramount, and I would not throw away that reputation by "stealing" art that doesn't belong to me. Not only is this foolish, that's downright dishonorable.

Just so you know Wizards staff visit this site often and openly admitting that you've used their art without rights to it, and have sold your product to anyone (even just friends) is kind of stupid. Doing it is wrong, but admitting in an open forum is quite stupid.

I hope you don't get in trouble for your actions, but if you had stolen any of my work, I would be greatly concerned and would report it immediately.

I appreciate all the work you've done for your friends, but even I don't give other peoples art to my friends without the right to do so.

At least by buying Fat Dragon's mini-tile set is legitimate. While preferring Wizards art to Fat Dragon's art is certainly understandable - using it for the purpose of getting paid for the work, but not paying for those who actually own it just makes you a scoundrel.

I'm not going to report you, but someone should.

GP

 

[BrokenClock]

I'm not on some kind of witchhunt, but what you're doing is still wrong. I too am a freelance illustrator and cartographer, but I am also a small RPG publisher - and guess what, I pay for all the art that is not my creation. In some cases I paid for single use rights and got a better deal for it, but I've also paid for All Rights Reserved on other stuff, especially cover designs.

I too am all for the little guy, but that doesn't mean I'm against the big guy. Wizards paid All Rights Reserved for their art, so despite the fact that the artists themselves don't feel hurt by what your doing, you are trying to bypass the rights of Wizards and that's copyright infringement.

For the art and cartography that I get commissions from RPG publishers to do for them, I created for them not the whole world - hopefully the publisher gets enough sales that some of the world can appreciate my work, but I usually don't give it away. To me being a professional illustrator and cartographer my reputation is paramount, and I would not throw away that reputation by "stealing" art that doesn't belong to me. Not only is this foolish, that's downright dishonorable.

Just so you know Wizards staff visit this site often and openly admitting that you've used their art without rights to it, and have sold your product to anyone (even just friends) is kind of stupid. Doing it is wrong, but admitting in an open forum is quite stupid.

I hope you don't get in trouble for your actions, but if you had stolen any of my work, I would be greatly concerned and would report it immediately.

I appreciate all the work you've done for your friends, but even I don't give other peoples art to my friends without the right to do so.

At least by buying Fat Dragon's mini-tile set is legitimate. While preferring Wizards art to Fat Dragon's art is certainly understandable - using it for the purpose of getting paid for the work, but not paying for those who actually own it just makes you a scoundrel.

I'm not going to report you, but someone should.

GP

Let us hope and cross our fingers that one day I will pay for my horrendous actions!

I might be a scoundrel, but I'm a scoundrel with the best counters you'll ever find.

 

[gamerprinter]

I disagree that the Wizards owned art is the best anyway. Too cartoony for my taste, so that would reflect in your "best counters" claim.

GP

 

[Fiery_Dragon]

Actually, I am an artist and I do freelance work for fun. As such, I can tell you this, I now have almost 2000 counters and almost all of them are different images, to contract artists to illustrate over 2000 different illustrations would cost 10s of thousands of dollars, not hundreds. Hell, to do this myself, would take me well over 5 years of constant drawing.

Yeah, that's about right. As someone who's invested the thousands of dollars and the years, I'm glad you can appreciate the resources and dedication my company has put in to create a needed product for the gaming community.

The thing is, Wizards doesn't release quality counters with the artwork they own (and this is important, we will get to this later), because they want you to buy minis. Have you seen the ones they have? Those weird little circle things? They suck.

Not so sure they're steering people toward their mini line any more. Have you seen the mini release schedule? Empty. And yet, they're including their "weird little circle things" in a bunch of upcoming products, so it looks to me like that's where they're headed.

Now, about this whole 'you're hurting the artist thing'. I have messaged a few of the many artists that drew those monsters and they all told me the same thing; They do not own the art anymore because they gave it to Wizards. The only thing they are allowed to do with it is post it on their portfolio. The ones I talked to, would not give a damn what I did with these counters . . . but Wizards would.

Have I sold the pdfs to these images? Yes, I have. Do I feel I'm hurting the little guy? Not a chance.

Unless you're talking about Claudio Pozas and Fiery Dragon and other legitimate counter product producers when you talk about who you're hurting... You know, the guys who have invested the thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to create counters that can be sold legitimately. It's tough enough as Wizards is entering the counter market with their "weird little circle things," but to add another competitor that doesn't have to spend the resources to compete - that's really tough on us little guys and artists.


You know, I was thinking "fun project" and "similar minds" and all that, right up until you started talking about the PDFs you've sold and defending your theft of copyright images. I'm all for counters - obviously - but I think you may have strayed from talking about a fun project into pretty dark territory, and you may have forgotten that other companies besides Wizards are involved in this game -- little guys who love the hobby as much as you do and are scrambling every day to make their hard work pay off.

- James