For the Love of Dungeons

[Jhaelen]

Part of the disconnect is that for some reason when people think dungeon they for some reason think lots of combat (like it's Diablo or something). A dungeon with lots of combat is a dungeon littered with the corpses of PCs. That isn't to say there isn't combat in dungeons, but there's a lot more to dungeons than strings of fights.

How in the world can board or video games "better" do exploration, puzzles, traps and all those other things. Board games and video games are inherently limited. RPGs are not.

It's not just the combat aspect. Exploration is an excellent example:
Have you played Gothic, Oblivion, or any MMORPG? Having a cool, realistic-looking 3D environment to immerse in is absolutely great. It's not an area where pen & paper rpgs can hope to compete.

Games like Prince of Persia or Tomb Raider include some really clever puzzle rooms and traps.

Where video games tend to fall flat is interacting with npcs. Though I've played in some MUDs where even that was great (since the npcs would be played by one of the 'wizards', i.e. the guys running the MUD).

Board games aren't as sexy as video games, but have one important aspect in common with rpgs: Meeting with your friends face-to-face to play a game is a social event. That's better than what MMORPGs can deliver.

It's also why I'm looking forward to the Ravenloft board-game: It promises to be an old-school dungeon exploration without the baggage.

Thinking some more about this: Isn't this also what D&D Encounters is supposed to deliver? Short & fun, with minimal prep time, making and meeting friends regularly?

 

[The Shaman]

The only reason I would ever consider playing or running any version of D&D again would be for a megadungeon campaign, where everyone understands going in that exploring a sprawling underworld is the focus of the game.

There will be a town for the adventurers to use as a base, and some length of wilderness to navigate between the dungeon and the town, but the goal of the game is to crawl the depths in search of glory and riches.

This is the sole attraction of D&D for me.

 

[Reynard]

It's not just the combat aspect. Exploration is an excellent example:
Have you played Gothic, Oblivion, or any MMORPG? Having a cool, realistic-looking 3D environment to immerse in is absolutely great. It's not an area where pen & paper rpgs can hope to compete.

Games like Prince of Persia or Tomb Raider include some really clever puzzle rooms and traps.

See, for me it is just the opposite. I love my X-Box 360. For the visceral thrill of faux combat, nothing beats it. Tabletop rpg combat can't compete with an FPS. However, when it comes to immersive environments and brain bending puzzles, nothing works like the mind's eye. I don't care how great the graphics are -- they will never create a cooler image or more impressive scope than what I can see within.

Thinking some more about this: Isn't this also what D&D Encounters is supposed to deliver? Short & fun, with minimal prep time, making and meeting friends regularly?

Maybe that's what Encounters is supposed to deliver, but the whole "short" and "minimal prep time" bit is pretty much at odds with what I am talking about. Those are the things video games and board games do well. When i settle in with a dungeon crawl, as DM or player, I want to be in that seat for half a day!

 

[Ariosto]

Most of the rooms contain treasure, which the players want, or monsters or traps, which are a threat.

On the old model, most rooms (60% in the 1st ed. AD&D DMG) contain none of the above. Moldvay Basic cut the OD&D random-stocking proportion in half, to 5/18.

"As a general rule, there will be far more uninhabited space on a level than there will be space occupied by monsters, human or otherwise." (D&D Vol. 3) I think that becomes more important as the dungeons get larger.

A small, more or less separate lair can be pretty densely packed. It can also be a tough nut to crack. (Bree-yark!)

If it's an old school mega-dungeon then the players have a lot of power to control how tough the encounters are, by choosing to descend stairs or not.

"In laying out your dungeons, keep in mind that downward (and upward) mobility is desirable, for players will not find a game enjoyable which confines them too much."

The ability to evade and to maneuver for advantage depends in very, very large part on the 'empty' spaces. Corridors that turn or change elevation (or both) after branching, so as to cut line of sight, are another asset.

Give the players plenty of opportunities to move between levels. It helps eliminate the "railroad" feeling of the linear dungeon.

Um ... The point, really, is for it not to be linear. Ideally, more than one opportunity should be available at once. If you're doing a multi-level linear dungeon ... I can only wonder why??

 

[Ariosto]

And rightly so
Not me, anymore. If I wanted just that, I'd either play a board game or a video game. Really, imho, these are better at that kind of thing. You don't really need all the 'roleplaying' baggage if that is all you're looking for.

Many people have, indeed, found what they wanted in video games. The technical strengths of computer games keep improving. However, they still have weaknesses next to human-moderated games. Thus, there can be reasons to play the latter instead of (or in addition to) the former.

Just why one would prefer a board game to D&D for classic dungeon adventures is beyond me. One can incorporate board-game elements to the degree they add to the experience, without having them get in the way at other points.

It may be that you have misread FireLance's post, as well, by taking it too literally.

 

[Reynard]

Um ... The point, really, is for it not to be linear. Ideally, more than one opportunity should be available at once. If you're doing a multi-level linear dungeon ... I can only wonder why??

Me too, but this doesn't change the fact that linearity does happen unintentionally and it's a worthwhile goal, when discussing dungeon design, to keep the avoidance of linearity at the forefront of the mind.

You see, the game is not played nor these boards read solely by those that have been rolling d20s for 30 years or more. New people enter the hobby and its associated communities on a regular basis -- though not as often as we might like -- and even those that have been around a while try new things now and again. So there's actual value in discussing the fundamentals on a regular basis. You never know when a fresh faced DM, just off a few poorly designed modules, wants to try and create his own dungeon, coming to messageboards for advice.

In addition, the old hands sometimes get stuck in their ways and fail to recognize their own weaknesses, too often convinced of their own rightness inherent in the somewhat suspect virtue of having been at it a long time. Even they can occasionally benefit from an obvious reminder now an again.

Ultimately, though, it's just a basic obvious but often overlooked mistake people make when designing dungeons. They come up with awesome ideas for traps, rooms, challenges and puzzles, and they want the players to experience them all. So in their architectural design, they inadvertently funnel the party through the level in a linear fashion to ensure they encounter all the DM's cool ideas. It happens. Pointing it out just might save someone from making that easy mistake as they sit down tonight and prep for their tuesday night game.

So, to come the long way round to answer your question: most DMs probably wouldn't *want* to design a linear dungeon, but they might do so because they lack experience, are in a hurry or are focused on some other aspect of design. They could probably use a reminder nudge not to do that.

 

[Ariosto]

Paul Jaquays rocked hard.

The Dungeoneer (editor)
Caverns of Thracia
Dark Tower

"I hope that no parties of low levels or turkeys go wandering into this one."

 

[Imaginary Number]

Um ... The point, really, is for it not to be linear. Ideally, more than one opportunity should be available at once. If you're doing a multi-level linear dungeon ... I can only wonder why??

I agree with Ariosto. (Did I really say that? Maybe I've had one too many gin and tonics. ) The whole idea of a big dungeon is to give the players lots of options to explore. That's not to say, of course, that linearity doesn't have a place in dungeon design: one of my favorite things to do, for example, is to have the players go through a one-way portal (secret door, teleporter, whatever) and be required to work their way out through a way different than the one they came in, and often with a gauntlet of difficult encounters or a time limit to make their lives less easy. Sometimes the DM's job is precisely to limit the players' options and make them do something they didn't necessarily expect to do -- limiting player choice in unexpected ways is part of the fun. But Reynard also is correct in pointing out that this technique can be overused. I've never seen a completely linear multi-level dungeon, but I'm sure a determined DM could concoct one given world enough and time, and going through it probably wouldn't be a fantastic experience.

 

[Reynard]

But Reynard also is correct in pointing out that this technique can be overused. and tonics. ) The whole idea of a big dungeon is to give the players lots of options t I've never seen a completely linear multi-level dungeon, but I'm sure a determined DM could concoct one given world enough and time, and going through it probably wouldn't be a fantastic experience.

The most likely mistake (and the one I used to make a lot and still make sometimes) is to design too many dead branches, creating a singular "path" through the level. As opposed to interconnecting rooms and hallways that loop around on one another. The funny thing is, this would actually be *hard* to do if you were trying, but if you're not paying a lot of attention it can happen quite easily by accident.

Imagine a dungeon level starting at A and the stairs down being at Z. If the rooms go A-B-C-D and then either H or a fork that goes to E-F-G and ends, it's still linear. There's a few more rooms to explore, but if G doesn't connect to I along with H, all you've done is create a dead branch.

 

[ancientvaults]

I love running dungeons. Dungeons are fun and can be anything that you want them to be. Philotomy Jurament has a great article on the dungeon as a Mythic Underworld, which is what we use for S&W.
I am slowly luring the players into Castle of the Mad Archmage , a megadungeon of epic proportions.