No Dice <Nerd Rage>

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As for "old players vs new". It's a false distinction. Old players draw in new players simply by deign of participation in the game. New players.. not as much. New players don't have as many good/experienced GMs, they can't organize as well... in many cases, they are kids and don't have the funds to support their hobby.

Then it is a good thing that WotC is organising D&D Encounters, where "old" players can run games for "new" players for free in a shop.

New players, more often than old players, become lapsed players.

I'm not following this. Care to expand a bit on that?

/M
 

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Sure. New players might only have a passing interest in the game, or might have a bad experience that puts them off gaming. It happens pretty often, in my experience.
Old players (often) have some personal investment in continuing to game, as it (often) becomes a part of their identity. How many hours have older DMs put into DMing? Constructing monsters, challenges, encounters, plots... it's alot of work and effort. TTRPGing is a commitment, and many new players aren't interested in having to work for their own enjoyment.
So, you can draw in a ton of new players, but if they don't become dedicated gamers, it's only a gonna be a temporary boost to your bottom line. It really makes me scratch my head, initiating policies that only serve to drive those that would otherwise be dedicated buyers away.
 

I bought together about 5 people who play 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons actually. All of them were new to the game and we've been playing IRL since 4E came out (obviously with some personnel changes as people came and left for various reasons).

I don't really think any of them have anything more than the original players handbook and dice. I allow them to use my computer and hence they have access to the character builder, but in general I don't believe they care anything for 3rd party products or PDFs whatsoever. I do know one or two might have the CB, but they check their characters on my computer anyway and they update the CB when errata is released - but otherwise don't subscribe every month.

They all seem perfectly happy with this and they aren't overly worried when things are updated. At the same time it's more people playing DnD, which wouldn't be playing as the only reason they are playing is because I introduced them to it.

Like ultimately what keeps me DMing 4th edition isn't 3rd party PDFs or anything like that - it's the fact I have people who turn up every week wanting to play. While Wizards doesn't get a lot from them, they get a lot from me as I buy nearly all of the released books for convenience, especially as I find reading PDFs impossible for some reason over a physical book. If I have people wanting to play DnD I have a reason to keep buying books and subscribing to DDI.

I mean, that's the point to me. Encounters is one thing I would love to get "spam" mail about because more people to play with is more interest in the hobby and such forth. Additionally because encounters requires no work on my part - or at least it shouldn't as the flaws of the 2nd season of Dark Sun shows - it is something I can do without taking away time from other gaming commitments.
 

Sure. New players might only have a passing interest in the game, or might have a bad experience that puts them off gaming.

Ah, ok. I don't myself think of them as lapsed, but as people who tried it and didn't like it enough to continue.

To me a lapsed player is someone who have played for a while, and then stopped for other reasons than not liking to play (maybe moving, studying, working, family or such things got in the way).

So to me a lapsed player is not the same thing as a new player that tried it and didn't like it. But that might be just semantics, and now that you explained it I see what you are saying.

/M
 

I call shenanigans^
The costs to produce and release a PDF is less than the cost of producing a large volume of physical copies. Furthermore, many books are PDFs before they are ever printed, as part of the editing process. At least, ones that have sophisticated fonts/graphics/indices are.

Whoa, hang on a tick here. Aren't we talking about 2e and 1e era pdf's? Cos, I'll tell you right now, NONE of them existed as a pdf before print.

Additionally, very few of the books would actually exist in a pdf format before being printed. Why would they? You don't do layout in pdf format. There's a reason that Dungeon web enhancements under Paizo would take months to arrive after the issue hit the newsstands.

I'd love to hear the explanation about how bandwidth is more expensive then shelf space, too.
I could go on, but most of what you are saying is ludicrous. There are really only two rational explanations. Either WotC got rid of PDFs because they didn't want their newest edition to compete with the draw of previous editions/material, or the decision was simple incompetence.
I think it's a little bit of column A, and a little bit of column B.

No, there is only two explanations if you are not educated on business accounting practices, tax laws and the actual processes of bringing a book to print.

Heck, how long does it take Drive Thru RPG to pay WOTC for sold pdf's? I have no idea. Neither do you. It could be months after the fact. Which is lost interest on the money they could have just stuck in the bank instead of spending to provide a product. That has to be factored in as well.

While I have zero idea how long an online store takes to credit its content providers, I do know I've heard Erik Mona talk about how distributors would take up to six months (yup MONTHS) to pay for an issue. That's a HUGE amount of capital to have tied up for that long.

WOTC is not some guy producing pdf's in his basement. They have to pay all sorts of stuff before you start seeing profits. Never mind the accounting practices of their parent company as well.

Look, a good selling pdf is a thousand, maybe two thousand copies. It could easily be not enough to pay the guy who has to account for that.

As for "old players vs new". It's a false distinction. Old players draw in new players simply by deign of participation in the game. New players.. not as much. New players don't have as many good/experienced GMs, they can't organize as well... in many cases, they are kids and don't have the funds to support their hobby. New players, more often than old players, become lapsed players.

This is false. At least the funds thing is false. WOTC already showed, years ago, that older players spend LESS on gaming than older gamers. There's a reason the marketing research for 3e stopped at age 35. The new gamer has to buy his core 3, probably a module or four, few bags of minis, dice, whatnot. Even if he quits a year later, he's still spent more this year than the old gamer will in the next three. (ok, I'm making those numbers up, but, you get the point)

So long as you get a steady stream of new gamers, who cares if only 10% of them stay. It's the 90% that's funding your hobby. And it likely always has been.

The potential to draw in new players exists with every player. The opportunity cost of raising barriers to play/restricting 3rd party support are that you are shrinking your player base, and simultaneously stifling its growth. Or, to put it in other words, it hurts the hobby.

That's why the spam irritated me. It's supposed to be an olive branch? A way to expand the hobby by bringing in more players? I find it sickeningly ironic that I'm being handed an olive branch by the same people that chopped down the tree in the first place.

Well, you wouldn't expect an olive branch from someone who always did what you liked would you? Isn't that the POINT of an olive branch?

3rd party support brings about zero people into the hobby. There's a reason that for much of the history of the game, it's been D&D, White Wolf and then WAYYYYY back, everybody else. Paizo has apparently made great strides, mostly by picking up those who didn't go to 4e. But, note, that's by picking up existing gamers. Not by bringing in new ones.

How many people actually come to the hobby by way of a 3pp? How many people, what percentage of gamers, started gaming with Mutants and Masterminds? Or the Conan RPG?

Look, I can understand being pissed about not getting what you want. Really, I totally sympathise. But, trying to paint this as anything other than simple economics is ridiculous. Let's apply a little Occam shall we? Which is more likely? PDF's are such a raging success that they are actually cutting into WOTC's bottom line, despite the fact that a good selling pdf sells only a few thousand copies, OR; PDF's are too small of a market for a company the size of WOTC to spent the time and money on?
 

You don't do layout in pdf format. There's a reason that Dungeon web enhancements under Paizo would take months to arrive after the issue hit the newsstands.

At my company we don't do layout in PDF, but today everything we deliver to our printers are PDF:s, and I believe it to be pretty much a standard procedure, i.e. layout is done e.g. in InDesign, but the file that is sent to the printer is a PDF.

Good point about 1st and 2nd edition not being in digital format.

/M
 
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At my company we don't do layout in PDF, but today everything we deliver to our printers are PDF:s, and I believe it to be pretty much a standard procedure, i.e. layout is done e.g. in InDesign, but the file that is sent to the printer is a PDF.

Good point about 1st and 2nd edition not being in digital format.

/M

Maggan, would the pdf's that you send to the printer be in the same format as what someone would want to buy from something like DriveThru RPG? Or would it be formatted for printing on large scale?

In other words, could you take the printer's pdf, slap on a new file name, and sell it to the public? (ignoring the actual content of course, I'm just asking about the format)

And, if the format is not what the general public would consume, how much time would it take to reformat a document into something that you could sell on Drive Thru?
 

Maggan, would the pdf's that you send to the printer be in the same format as what someone would want to buy from something like DriveThru RPG? Or would it be formatted for printing on large scale?

In other words, could you take the printer's pdf, slap on a new file name, and sell it to the public? (ignoring the actual content of course, I'm just asking about the format)

And, if the format is not what the general public would consume, how much time would it take to reformat a document into something that you could sell on Drive Thru?

Most often it would just be a new export from InDesign, to bring down the file size. After that, hey presto, we could sell it. Takes 20 minutes tops, and that's including a 15 minute coffee break. :D

But I think I would like to add an index and bookmarks and stuff like that, which could take up to an extra day of preparations, if we did all the proper ground work from the beginning. Maybe a bit less time, but not magnitudes less, nor magnitudes more either.

Not that I think the PDF market is viable for WotC mind you, so I totally agree with the conclusions you present.

/Maggan
 

And that's what it comes down to. Bottom line. They were not selling enough PDF's to be worth it. If the PDF's were profitable, they'd be selling them. It has nothing to do with "cutting off" former players or making it more difficult for other publishers.

I thought the piracy notion was one of their factors for ceasing to sell PDFs? While piracy affects profit it does not by default lead to the product being non-profitable.

As for some of the other reasons you mention - which are true, there need to be accountants, tax guys, etc to manage this. But I suspect they didn't have to hire a large number of accountants that weren't already on staff as a sunk cost. From the accountant perspective it is just another product number - it could be a hard back book or PDF or mini and to the accountant it is just a part number. There would likely need to be a manager to track PDF sales and monitor sales reports, but I am not sure they couldn't utilize existing staff.

They're not doing it because it's not profitable to do it. End of story. There's no conspiracy or anything like that. There doesn't need to be. So, they eat the bitching and whining of a small number of people annoyed by the lack of pdf's and keep on trucking.

For the same reason I can't get a pdf of the James Bond RPG. Or the original Villains and Vigilantes. It's just not worth the time and money to do so.

Hussar said:
People bitched constantly that the pdf's were overpriced. Now they bitch because they're not available. So, it's not as simple as just making them available again. They'd have to make them available AND drop the prices - making the profits even less.

Their PDFs were overpriced which can impact the profitability of a product. When determining a price for a product the company needs to find the right mix of price and volume to find that sweet spot that allows them to make a profit. Did WotC play much with price to determine this price point or did they just put them out at a price they felt the market would support, found out it didn't and give up on finding the right price point?

One also has to wonder if their tolerance for piracy was much less than other PDF printing companies which led to their stopping of PDF publishing?

In either case - we are all basing our thoughts on speculation in both cases. Neither of us have hard numbers or are intimately familiar with the business factors that would have impacted this decision at WotC. So neither of us can debate this topic with any real authority since our cases are based on pure speculation.
 

There are really only two rational explanations. Either WotC got rid of PDFs because they didn't want their newest edition to compete with the draw of previous editions/material, or the decision was simple incompetence.

Man, I don't even disagree with your position on these things, and I'm still rather offended by the absolutes in which you seem to view things. The arguments others are putting forth are irrational and ludicrous? The only possible explanations is that WotC is evil or incompetent? I repeat, this sort of mindset, and the completely unwillingless to even consider another point of view, hurts the hobby more than anything WotC has done.

As for "old players vs new". It's a false distinction. Old players draw in new players simply by deign of participation in the game. New players.. not as much.

New players expand the hobby by being new players. WotC trying to bring them in - and trying to provide an environment where old players can help new players get into the game - is probably one of the best approaches to help the hobby grow.

They aren't simultaneously trying to drive off old players - they have other initiatives in place to appeal to lapsed players, and some consider the second year of 4E to have been focused on providing a great deal of content designed to answer some of the concerns that were preventing people from adapting to the system.

I mean, I get that you didn't like receiving advertising from WotC. But the blind hate that has arisen, especially from an initiative designed to grow the game, just seems way too extreme to me.

That's why the spam irritated me. It's supposed to be an olive branch? A way to expand the hobby by bringing in more players? I find it sickeningly ironic that I'm being handed an olive branch by the same people that chopped down the tree in the first place.

So what you are saying, just so we are clear, is that because you feel WotC made a bad call with earlier decisions about the hobby, that you do not want to ever see them make a good decision for the hobby, and that you would rather they not appeal to new players because doing so irritates you?

I mean... like I said, I get not wanting to receive spam. It sounds like WotC didn't send it to you directly, though, but a store owner or game organizer or some such - you should really appeal to them if the e-mail was truly unwanted. But I'd think that after critizing their earlier decisions, you would be all for one that is truly for the good of the hobby.
 

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