What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[rgard]

Off-topic, but I just noticed you've got that double "Community Supporter" thing going on also. Piratecat said it might be something in our User Settings that might be causing it, but I couldn't see any settings that affected it. He said he was going to take a look at mine and see if he could fix it. If he figures it out, I'll drop you a pm and either tell you how he did it or let you know he can fix it.

Hmmm...I think the double 'Community Supporter' is very cool and I'm hoping I get one when I convert to monthly from annual!

Thanks,
Rich

 

[rgard]

Copyright infringement, like embezzlement, larceny and a lot of other nifty legal terms is but one of a subset of crimes that fall under the general definition of "theft." Theft, in its simplest formulation, is taking and/or using something that doesn't belong to you without permission.

As I've posted here elsewhen (one of several similar posts on this subject exist- many with more detail and some with case sites- but this is the first one I found):



Even within the realm of the purely physical, theft doesn't require that the item to be stolen even be moved off of the owner's property. The crime of shoplifting is complete as soon as you pocket the item- letting you get out of the store is just the cherry on top that makes things easy. Moving something in a stockroom to a different location and locking it away elsewhere on the premises so that you can take it home after work is a complete theft the moment you shift that item with the intent to take it later.

So, if you're one of the types who believe that information should be free, and/or that its not theft if the person still has possession of the item stolen, please send me a message containing your real name, drivers license numbers, social security numbers, bank account numbers, pet names, parent's names- including maiden names- and anything else I'd need to steal your identity.



This has everything to do with ethics.

This non-lawyer agrees with you.

Tried to give xps, but I have to spread some around.

 

[pawsplay]

Copyright infringement, like embezzlement, larceny and a lot of other nifty legal terms is but one of a subset of crimes that fall under the general definition of "theft." Theft, in its simplest formulation, is taking and/or using something that doesn't belong to you without permission.

Like the public's right to enjoy the useful arts and sciences. I'm comfortable labeling Sonny Bono a thief by that definition, although I'm sure others may find it contrary to their understanding.

So, if you're one of the types who believe that information should be free, and/or that its not theft if the person still has possession of the item stolen, please send me a message containing your real name, drivers license numbers, social security numbers, bank account numbers, pet names, parent's names- including maiden names- and anything else I'd need to steal your identity.

I don't believe assault is theft, that doesn't mean I'm going to close my eyes and ask you to take your best shot.

And really, the threat of identity theft has a lot to do with the artifical and dangerous nature of intangible ownership. If someone believes in free information, it's hardly their fault that someone else believes in giving away credit cards in the mail.

 

[Herschel]

1. I'd like to hear just once from someone at Wizards issue a public statement to the effect that, "Hey, we screwed up." I'm not asking them to apologize for 4th Edition...

But the fact is, if they want customers like me back, I'd like them to show just a little bit more appreciation for the people that kept D&D alive before 4th Edition arrived.

2. Bring back PDFs.

If I wanted to pirate your crap, WotC, I would, but I don't, and I'd love to PAY YOU MY HARD EARNED MONEY for material that is no longer in your "current library," but continues to have tremendous value to the gaming community.

3. Make DDI what you said it would be.

The character builder is useless to me, because I don't play 4e. But if you were to put a working tabletop system into play, and charge the small premium for it? Now we're talking. DDI as it currently stands has zero interest to me.

4. Incentives to play that DON'T include living FR, or D&D game days, or whatever RPGA schlock you're hocking.

1. For a rather huge number of people, they didn't screw up. 4E is a great game enjoyed by oodles and scads. Because you don't like it means you're just in the group they knew were going to be mad and expected to see "go". You were simply an expected casualty in gaming progress. I've been one too. There will always be people upset regardless, this time it happened to be you. It sucks, but it is what it is.

2. PDFs? Really? They're kind of nice I suppose but between the books and DDI they really aren't necessary for their current product line.

3. Again, DDI is geared towards those playing the current edition. Your wants aren't important to them so long as you're not a current consumer. Move on,publish or perish. Why would they take their core e-product and put more resources in to an essentially unneeded and more involved application? That's not a good business proposition.

4. So you want it cheap on the off-chance you decide to buy. Again, why should they cater to that desire? That's an idiotic business strategy. Like it or not, LFR, game days, etc. introduce people to the game and each other, enlarging and enhancing the player base in meaningful (from a business/numbers standpoint) ways.

At the end of the day, WotC wants as many customers as they can get in a profitable way. Your wants aren't really profitable.

 

[Mournblade94]

At some point, the false entitlement and self-righteousness permeating certain members of ENworld gets old.

ENTITLE V>
1.to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim

ENTITLEMENT N.
1.the act of entitling.

2.the state of being entitled.

3.the right to guaranteed benefits under a government program, as Social Security or unemployment compensation.



This is not directed at you personally, it is directed towards the many comments I have seen with 'entitlement'.

It is ridiculous. This is not welfare, or social security, or even education. There is no entitlement and I doubt anyone feels entitled to anything in regards to the gaming hobby. Fans of 4e use it to blow off complaints by anyone not on their side of the market. It is very easy to be the side being served by WOTC and throw that word around. You are perfectly happy with the state of things, so why should it change? Is it perhaps that WOTC is giving the 4e fans what they are entitled too? NO. They happen to have enough people too support them in the direction they wish to market.

People are allowed to be upset with a company. There is no entitlement about it. To say it is entitlement is an exercise in hyperbole and nothing more.

There are people that will criticise WOTC. Not due to entitlement, but because WOTC is a public company that no longer serves a part of the market.

IF Ice Cream manufacturers suddenly stopped making Vanilla Ice Cream, and made only chocolate available, you would have angry people criticising the manufacturer, not out of entitlement but out of angst that their flavor is no longer available.

I am no longer angry at WOTC, simply because somebody else (PAIZO) picked up that part of the market.

However, if PAIZO did not fix the problem I would still be angry at WOTC. Not due to entitlement, but because I simply would have lost a game I enjoyed. (YES, I know that nobody is stealing my books. But the game I enjoy would no longer be supported. I have all my old toys still, but I will never get anything new)

I honestly do not think that WOTC expected the AMOUNT of lost customers they caused with 4e. Certainly they expected some, but I doubt they expected the market to fracture the way it did.

Perhaps the nostalgia marketing is a result of that.

Also, when I ran 4e, I did not allow Dragonborn. A player wanted to play the Dragonborn. Should I be forced to allow Dragonborn because a player is entitled to it because it is in the rules? That player did not play in my game. Did that player leave because he felt I was not giving him something he was entitled to, or did he leave because the game would not be the game he wanted?

 

[Shemeska]

1. For a rather huge number of people, they didn't screw up. 4E is a great game enjoyed by oodles and scads. Because you don't like it means you're just in the group they knew were going to be mad and expected to see "go". You were simply an expected casualty in gaming progress.

I'm not terribly convinced that everyone who didn't switch to 4e was well in advance anticipated by WotC to be acceptable losses from their customer base. We don't know how many didn't versus new people coming into 4e and staying. It's entirely possible that the buying and playing base for 4e shrank versus that of 3.x but there's no way of knowing presently.

I would infer from the marketing and content of Essentials that a large number of people did not switch and they're having to make a conscious effort to make a play for them, since they didn't get them the first time around. Others will likely read very different things from the same details.

 

[Mournblade94]

I'm not terribly convinced that everyone who didn't switch to 4e was well in advance anticipated by WotC to be acceptable losses from their customer base. We don't know how many didn't versus new people coming into 4e and staying. It's entirely possible that the buying and playing base for 4e shrank versus that of 3.x but there's no way of knowing presently.

I would infer from the marketing and content of Essentials that a large number of people did not switch and they're having to make a conscious effort to make a play for them, since they didn't get them the first time around. Others will likely read very different things from the same details.

As I said above, I am convinced the market split was a magnitude above what WOTC anticipated.

I would have given you experience but apparently I gave you some earlier.

Sorry

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Today at Borders I saw some twenty-something gamers discuss which 4e book they were going to get, then walk out with a bunch of Pathfinder stuff instead.

Part of the discussion was based on rules, more was based on format, and most seemed to just be that the Pathfinder books looked better....

I prefer Pathfinder, I am glad that they went with Pathfinder, but their reasons for doing so just seems wrong, somehow....

What does this mean? Danged if I know, but something in my soul is crying....

The Auld Grump

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have an MBA in marketing entertainment & sports: NEVER underestimate the power of kewl packaging.

What's the old saying? "You eat first with your eyes..."

 

[Jack99]

Off-topic, but I just noticed you've got that double "Community Supporter" thing going on also. Piratecat said it might be something in our User Settings that might be causing it, but I couldn't see any settings that affected it. He said he was going to take a look at mine and see if he could fix it. If he figures it out, I'll drop you a pm and either tell you how he did it or let you know he can fix it.

I have been wondering about that. Send away if you hear anything.