A Discussion in Game Design: The 15 minute work day.

[Ariosto]

I see that as more of a narrative issue

Well, the OP posed it as a "mechanical" issue.

they still have recharge mechanics that date back to the grey box, without the troubles that come along with running out of resources that that edition provided.

"The grey box"? I don't think you mean Forgotten Realms Second Edition!

 

[I'm A Banana]

If that is relevant to the matter at hand -- suggested "game design" to change the situation -- then I am sure that someone will point out how.

Well, it's relevant, because changing "the situation" might not change the root of the problem, if we don't understand the root of the problem in the first place.

 

[LostSoul]

Right, but why not? How does it create a negative effect at the table? What specifically happens to make it an issue? What's the deal with it? What does it cause that is negative? How is it un-fun?

As a strategy it's too good - it radically reduces the level of challenge. Consider the dungeon delves that WotC released - three encounters in a row. Challenging to go through without rest; little challenge if the PCs can take as long as they want.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is no one way a class is "supposed to be played."

That's for you to say of your own game design. I'm talking about Gygax's game design, and what others have made by mangling it.

My game design? What are you talking about?

I've been playing AD&D since 1977- and still in an active 1Ed/2Ed hybrid game that started back in 1985- and I've played my fighters in a variety of ways. Dumb guys, smart guys, tactical guys, "Leeroy Jenkinses", ranged fighters, guerilla fighters, unmoving walls of meat & metal, polearm guys, in-close knife-fighters and so forth.

Later editions of the game introduced even more flexibility in PC design.

So I reiterate- there is no one way a class is supposed to be played.

Do you seriously think it makes no difference when one class (fighter) gets stuck in the same old limits, while others (clerics and magic-users) encroach on those?

Magic has let everyone encroach on the Fighter's shtick since AD&D- spells like Mordenkainen's Sword, potions of Heroism or Super-heroism, etc.- started the trend early on.

If the spellcaster wants to burn spells to fight like a fighter when he could be doing other things, let him. When he gets stuck on the front line surrounded by foes (just like the fighter usually does) and the need for real magic is needed...well, the party will just have to wait while he fights his way out of his pickle of the moment. (Hope no enemy spellcaster can dispel his magically-gained melee prowess...)

But how does this "encroachment" issue matter to the 15 minute workday?

Actually, yes it does, by the old rules, and for good reason.
It's this little thing called "game balance".

Now who is being selective?

I specifically said in that very post that a spellslinger wouldn't be as good with a bow as someone who is a dedicated bowman. In fact, the very next sentence is:

Me

Not as proficient as the guy who does it all day and has done since childhood, to be sure, but competent nonetheless.

I'm not saying that a spellcaster with a bow will ever be the equal of a warrior similarly equipped. That's not what I'm saying with "competent" or "proficient"- I'm saying he is proficient with the weapon as per the rules of the game and can use the weapon as is intended. He may not be able to fire 2 arrows into a single target simultaneously, but he can put one on a hostile target 50 feet away.

 

[pemerton]

So what would be the absolute worst way to fix the 15-minute adventuring day problem?

(1) Give all classes daily powers (increasing the mechanical incentive for nova strategies).

(2) Create a hard cap on the amount of healing any single character can receive (introducing a hard limit resulting in forced rests that didn't previously exist).

I can see the logic of your point, and yet I've found that 4e has mostly solved the 15-minute adventuring day problem for my group (before 4e we played RM, which has a PP-based magic system and suffers very badly, IME, from the 15-minute syndrome).

Given my experience, I should be able to work out what has gone wrong with your logic. In the case of daily powers, the relevant consideration is that (at least for the PCs in my game) they are often quite situational, and hence they don't support a nova strategy. I do have a sorcerer PC whose player likes to nova, but he does this by putting as many interrupts (all encounter powers, I think) into his build as possible.

In the case of healing surges, the relevant consideration is that (at least for the PCs in my game) there is a limit on how many surges they can spend during a combat. And of course they can't spend more than 4 once combat is over. So while healing does impose a hard limit, it is not a 15-minute one.

Another feature of 4e that has helped reduce 15-minute days for my group is that an extended rest doesn't give any benefit if you've taken one in the past 24 hours. This is a bit like a watered-down version of Dausuul's approach up thread - compared to RM, this is a serious enough time cost for resting that the players don't always reach for it as their preferred option.

 

[Bullgrit]

I think the nova/15mins problem is related with (mishandling) the CR-System.

You know, I just realized something about my experience with the 15-minute adventuring day. I think a DM's mishandling of the EL system has a lot to do with it.

As a DM, I hadn't really seen this concept come up very much after about 3rd or 4th level. At low levels, the PCs have few resources (like only two or three 1st-level spells), and they can use them up quickly. But once they get more resources, they can hold out longer on an adventure.

When I've designed adventures for my group, I usually had several encounters with an EL below the party level. I didn't really mindfully follow the D&D3 DMG guidelines for ELs, but looking over my adventures, my "design it by gut feel" method often ended up in alignment with the DMG guidelines.

This design methodology is something I've followed since my earliest D&D days -- BD&D, AD&D, into D&D3. I just saw the guidelines in the D&D3 DMG as confirmation that my tried and true methods, learned from and based on classic D&D adventures, were good.

Once the PCs were 5th, 7th, 9th levels and higher, we could play through many encounters, deep into dungeons, without the PCs having to rest and regain resources.

But then, about a year ago, our group agreed to run a round-robin-DM campaign. We'd each run an adventure, in turns. This is when I started noticing the 15-minute day.

To illustrate what seemed to be happening (D&D3 game):

I'd make an adventure, with, say, 10 encounters:
1- EL = PL -3
2- EL = PL -2
3- EL = PL -5
4- EL = PL -1
5- EL = PL -2
6- EL = PL
7- EL = PL -4
8- EL = PL -3
9- EL = PL
10- EL = PL +2

The PCs could, if they were strategic and "good", make it all the way through the adventure in one game day. Probably, though, they'd have to rest at least once, taking two game days to complete it.

But then when another guy in our group ran his adventure (10 encounters):
1- EL = PL
2- EL = PL
3- EL = PL
4- EL = PL
5- EL = PL
6- EL = PL
7- EL = PL
8- EL = PL
9- EL = PL
10- EL = PL

Then another guy in our group, seeing how long it took us to go through the previous adventure (because we had to rest after every few encounters), would make a shorter but tougher adventure (5 encounters)

1- EL = PL +1
2- EL = PL +1
3- EL = PL +1
4- EL = PL +1
5- EL = PL +1

Then the next guy to run an adventure, saw how relatively easily we started handling the encounters would up the ante even more:

1- EL = PL +2
2- EL = PL +2
3- EL = PL +2
4- EL = PL +2
5- EL = PL +2

Eventually it got to the point where we'd rest after every encounter. We'd meet every next encounter with a full resource dump. It took everything we had to survive the encounters, and we'd be completely spent at the end. Our game sessions would be just one or two major encounters.

It even got to the point where when we got good at overcoming the major ELs that the DM handwaved a duplicate encounter because he knew we'd win it.

Then one of the guys used a Dragon magazine adventure -- one apparently designed based on the DMG guidelines. I saw PCs throwing their biggest resources into a fight that really didn't need it. We'd wipe out a couple EL = PL -2 encounters easily, and then everyone wanted to rest to recover resources. This adventure was pretty easy, but it took us several game days to get through.

I tried talking to the other guys about this, but the general opinion seemed to be that fights below PL weren't interesting (to the DM running the adventure). Only "challenging" encounters were worth the effort. And the general consensus was that the DMG idea of "challenging" (that is, EL = PL) was not strong enough. Only ELs of PL +2 and more were actually challenging to the PCs -- "challenging" in this case, meaning balls-to-the-wall, use all our resources to survive and overcome.

So the 15-minute day became annoying, but the DMs always made high challenges that required "recharging" before each one.

It was a vicious cycle.

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

We'd wipe out a couple EL = PL -2 encounters easily, and then everyone wanted to rest to recover resources.

For example (D&D3 game):

We entered a room where about a dozen human zombies rose up and shambled to us. We had two tanks up front (including my war cleric). If I wanted to, my cleric could have destroyed all the zombies with one turn undead. But I decided to hold that resource in case something worse showed up later. We two tanks could kill the zombies in melee easily, and the zombies were unlikely to hit our ACs.

Basically, give us a few rounds (what, 5 minutes?), and we'd be moving on to the next encounter. But the wizard PC threw in a fireball and killed all the zombies.

First off, we tanks were a bit miffed at having a fireball thrown into our melee (it missed us by 5'). But then I got to thinking how much of a waste it was to use a 3rd-level spell on a dozen basic zombies.

This causes the 15-minute day.

Bullgrit

 

[LostSoul]

This causes the 15-minute day.

That + the lack of consequences for that choice.

 

[RangerWickett]

Bullgrit, I have never seen a 4e combat last 5 minutes. I can't imagine having 5 combat encounters in a single night's game.

Personally, I prefer to run games like I see TV series and novels: one or two plot-significant combats at most, and only once in a blue moon will we throw in a plot-non-significant combat, usually to add some flavor or show how bad-ass the PCs are.

Heck, even the idea that "fighting for your life" could be 'filler' is unappealing to me. If you have more than one fight in a day, by rights you should be looking for how to get the hell out of there and find some place safe. But that's just the way I want to run my game.

 

[Bullgrit]

Bullgrit, I have never seen a 4e combat last 5 minutes. I can't imagine having 5 combat encounters in a single night's game.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about D&D4. My examples were from a D&D3 campaign. I keep forgetting that D&D4 is the basic assumption -- the current edition always is.

Bullgrit