C4, the Best Edition Never Published

Your inherent bonuses are thought out a lot better than what we get in DMG 2.

Actually i would push them back to levels X5 and X9 in regular play. So finding a magical sword still gives a real bonus (about +1 when finding level appropriate items)
 

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before these links are cut or this thread stopped.

I don't think having a 4E OGL would have hurt WotC one bit and I don't think this will either.

But thats just me.

Thanks for the hard work.

That's cool and all- and maybe I even agree about the OGL- but it's not up to you (or me), and neither of us is in a position to really know.

Certainly it's hard to argue that the 3e OGL didn't hurt them in the long run; the whole Pathfinder crowd is lost customers that wouldn't have a PF system to use if it wasn't for the OGL.
 

Certainly it's hard to argue that the 3e OGL didn't hurt them in the long run; the whole Pathfinder crowd is lost customers that wouldn't have a PF system to use if it wasn't for the OGL.

They banadoned that segment of the community that liked D&D3.5, similarly to those that still play AD&D or even older editions. These people (myself included) are not lost to WotC as I just do not play 4E.

OGL helped wotc a great deal. It still helps, as via PF it keeps people in the hobby. Maybe 5th edition will again be good.
 

Oh man, this *is* a huge copyright violation! :eek:

This said, I do dig your idea - collecting a "best of" of all 4E material, updating/errata-ing and putting it together would be amazing (and one could fix expertise/defence feats in the same go or chuck out unbalanced or weird stuff)... but sadly, that's only within the purview of WotC.

Alas, I miss the OGL and the old d20 SRD...

Cheers, LT.

OGL is still out there for d20/3.x use. He could do basically what PF does and create something CLOSE to a 4e clone. He just isn't going to be able to call it 4e compatible or paste in text from WotC products. OGL was a nice concept but GSL doesn't allow this kind of thing. He might be able to do something using GSL but it would also be somewhat trickier since you aren't allowed to change existing material (maybe you can make a variant of the fighter, but you can't rewrite the existing fighter class). I suspect one might be able to walk that line with the implicit understanding that the material is INTENDED to stand alone, but you still can't change certain things like character advancement rules. Sure as heck can't use WotC trade dress.

Honestly though, my impression from bit of random skimming I did that like other 4e house rule sets I've seen it is both annoyingly too much and at the same time annoyingly too little. If I'm going to play a totally nonstandard variant I might as well go the step further and rewrite the core rules to fix what ails them and just call it what it is, a different game.
 

First of all, get rid of the coloured background if you expect people to print this. If it's for screen use, put it in landscape format to suit the proliferation of wide screens.
Good point. Hopefully I can reformat to landscape without having to remake the docs...ah, yet another InDesign puzzle to work out.

I think you need to not copy other people's work. Why not take this energy and submit articles to Dragon or Dungeon?
Why don't I take my role playing energy and audition for local theatre? Because I'd rather do this.

This said, I do dig your idea - collecting a "best of" of all 4E material, updating/errata-ing and putting it together would be amazing (and one could fix expertise/defence feats in the same go or chuck out unbalanced or weird stuff)... but sadly, that's only within the purview of WotC.
Taxpertise and NAD fixers will definitely not appear in C4 Feats...whenever I get to that.

You have some interesting ideas, but it's difficult for me to really dive into them because you actually have, well, all of the quoted stuff getting in the way. It would be a lot easier for me to get a feel for your changes with a change list than having to look at every power wondering what happened.
I hadn't planned on emphasizing my house rules (I can already see the "this thread's in the wrong forum!" posts), but here's a [mostly] complete list of 'em.

Extra Level Boosts: C4 characters get extra attack and defense bonuses at levels 11 and 21, which replace feat taxes and masterwork armor. C4 characters also boost every score at 4th and 8th levels, which keeps the game numbers consistent.

First Level Ability Boosts: Instead of getting racial bonuses to ability scores, C4 characters get training bonuses. Why?

First, because all races are supposed to be playable with any class, but in practice the number of race/class combos that see play are rather limited. That’s because most players look at a race’s ability score entry, and if one of its ability bonuses doesn’t at least boost the prime ability of the class the player wants to play, the combo gets discarded even if the player sees great role play potential in it. And who can blame those players? A big part of D&D is combat, and the best and most fun way to win combat is to hit. And a racial boost to your class’ prime ability is one of the few obvious and easy ways to get better at hitting.

Second, because some racial bonuses punish players for choosing thematic combos. Tieflings should make natural infernal warlocks, but because they don’t get a Constitution bonus, that combo is played less often than the tiefling fey warlock. There are feats that reward thematic combos, like Hellfire Blood, but they’re often circumstantial and many players would rather just hit more often than have a mere damage bonus.

Class Skills: CC4 classes have long skill lists, because your character history should dictate your skills, not your class. The only skills still restricted are Perception and Stealth, some players would take them regardless of history, due to how useful they are for an adventurer.

Weapliments: D&D writers still seem to think that being good at stabbing things and zapping things is wrong, so they make you maintain two items if you want to do that. The traditional paladin, whose historical weapon of choice (the long sword) is his holy symbol (the Christian cross), whose class powers include both stabbing powers and zapping powers, can’t use his sword for both in D&D. Unless he happens to be an epic paladin with a holy avenger, which inexplicably makes it okay.

Paladins, and all other C4 characters, can use weapons as implements. Because guess what? You shouldn’t be punished [more than you already are] for wanting to stab things and zap them.

Build Fixing: Every C4 build has exactly one of the following: a primary stat to AC, a secondary stat to AC, proficiency with heavy armor or a scaling class bonus. Every C4 build relies on just one stat for its attack and damage rolls. Mostly, this doesn’t require any difference from RAW but some builds need editting. For example the RAW arena fighter has two scaling AC bonuses (Dex and a scaling class bonus), while the bear shaman has no scaling AC bonus -- which only encourages such characters to take heavy armor proficiency. Stupid, huh?

Martial Artists: By RAW, only high strength characters are good at opportunity attacks. A rogue can blind several opponents from a distance with his dagger, but if those enemies rush past him, he suddenly becomes a putz as he flails wildly about trying to stab them. This is moronic, even by D&D standards, so C4 weapon wielders can use their build’s prime stat for appropriate basic attacks.

Gnomes: I’m not even a gnome lover, but I don’t think 4e does them justice. Or maybe I’m just really pleased with this tinker gnome home brew I found. 4e has a lot of races now, but tinkers are a classic trope that's still oddly missing. Also, the official gnome prest...whatever racial power is the saddest I’ve ever seen. It actually punishes players for playing gnome wizards, so I upgraded it.

Other: C4 has a few other oddball tweaks, like dropping the idiotic ‘swords only!’ swordmage restriction and dropping the wizard’s faux spell book.

I applaud your level of investment at least. But, do it in a way that doesn't get you in trouble, eh? :)
Trouble? I eagerly await my wrist slap.

Your inherent bonuses are thought out a lot better than what we get in DMG 2.

Actually i would push them back to levels X5 and X9 in regular play. So finding a magical sword still gives a real bonus (about +1 when finding level appropriate items)
Not a bad idea...*ponders*
 
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I have to agree with the copyright concerns, this isn't the OGL anymore, and a lot of these information is copy pasted from the core books.

In fact, so much so if it is legal I would want a change list to see the differences
 

If you are going to even out ability score increases then why not just ditch them entirely? MOST of the problems with things like basic attacks, non weapon/implement attacks becoming worthless, etc are all issues ONLY because there are ability score increases to start with. It means having a different and larger series of inherent bonuses, but it WOULD fix a number of problems with the core system. You've already done away with the need for masterwork armor, so why not go the next step?

For that matter why not just ditch half level bonuses while you're at it. With proper redesign of the monster guidelines they can be ditched and you don't need ANY sort of inherent bonuses at all. It will somewhat change the balance of power between higher level monsters and PCs but the higher damage and pile of hit points they have will still insure they aren't easy pickings.

At that point feats like Expertise really aren't a big deal either. OF COURSE the guy that wants to be the best swordsman in history is going to pick up a feat that gives him a +1 with a sword, at some point, but without scaling it becomes a rather minor bonus and mostly just reinforces the character's attachment to his signature weapon/implement without creating a major penalty to using some other item.
 

For that matter why not just ditch half level bonuses while you're at it. With proper redesign of the monster guidelines they can be ditched and you don't need ANY sort of inherent bonuses at all.


To me, this is the clash between people who want to house rule and people who want to redesign.

Redesign may ultimately make a superior new game, but it requires a lot more work. In this example, ditching the half level bonus as well as many other bonuses would require renumbering all attack/damages for all monsters in all 4 monster books.

That is...a significant investment.

On the other hand, some can impose a houserule that has nearly the same benefit, but requires little retooling for everything else. To me these are generally superior as it allows you to apply the fix with far less work.
 

I'm really surprised the mods have allowed those links to stay on there for such a long time. On another thread Umbran gave a very explicit warning to a poster who did little more than give a thinly veiled suggestion to ignore a WotC denial to use their material on his webpage and just to it anyway.

This seems far beyond that because the links are posted right here.

I think some of the OPs houserules are interesting but, that seems a little beside the point.

I wonder what the story is.
 

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