C4, the Best Edition Never Published

[Nyronus]

Second, the game is still problematic. It has overpowered options like the infamous taxpertise feats and crippled builds like the star pact warlock. The designers, for whatever inane reason, haven’t seen fit to errata these problems and probably never will. C4 is errata for these problems.

... *snigger*

*snort*

As a person who is a power gamer, a DM for a burgeoning group of power gamers, and a Warlock fan, I can tell you that Star-pact Warlocks are not crippled. They are... if you build them wrong. Then again, a Fighter with 14 strength and a battleaxe isn't doing to well either. A Cha-Based Star-pact Warlock can wipe the floor with people. Particularly those who multiclass Wizard and go Doomsayer. As far as Warlocks in general go, they don't out-damage Rangers and while you can min-max their at-wills into 100+ DPR range if you know what your doing, they actually tend to have rather shitey nova potential. Of course, when you can stun-lock Solos, damage really stops being an issue.

As for the "taxpertise" feats, those are so painfully easy to deal with I'm surprised you take them as a big deal. 5, 15, 25. That's it. Or heck, just give the feats "for free."

I can't really comment on anything else as the links have been removed, and it seems with good reason. Copyright infringement is not cool. Though, considering the problems you chose to highlight I doubt your house-rule pack would be of much use. The people of WotC spent years designing 4th Edition and have further spent a great deal of time analyzing new data as it comes in, constantly tweaking the game as it goes to improve it with each step. They are professionals and some of, if not the best in the RPG industry who have consistently put out a good product. To be blunt, your some dude with 3 posts on an anonymous online forum claiming you can do better, and who, going by your hot-button issues, does not seem to have a good pulse on the metagame at all.

This does not inspire confidence.

 

[the Jester]

I'm really surprised the mods have allowed those links to stay on there for such a long time. On another thread Umbran gave a very explicit warning to a poster who did little more than give a thinly veiled suggestion to ignore a WotC denial to use their material on his webpage and just to it anyway.

This seems far beyond that because the links are posted right here.

I think some of the OPs houserules are interesting but, that seems a little beside the point.

I wonder what the story is.

Prolly they hadn't seen it?

 

[Dice4Hire]

Prolly they hadn't seen it?

Apparently the mice are having a bit of fun.

Actually, they did get it pretty quickly, but not instantaneously or before I saw it like they usually do.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

They are all at Morrus's wedding. So I say "hey" for good timing.

But I would suggest moving this hread under houserules, and only listing changes. Would be a nice thread and even more convenient to use.

 

[Umbran]

Folks,

The OP has been advised about our policies, so we don't have to worry about the copyright infringement aspect of this project further.

There's still a major house rules aspect that may be fertile for discussion, so I've moved the thread to house rules for that purpose.

Carry on!

 

[C4]

I've asked that this thread be moved to house rules, as there seems to be interest in that aspect of C4. That being said, I'll address a couple HR related concerns:

...

Yes, I realize that simply rewriting the game may end with a better game in the long run. But as Stalker0 says, that requires even more time and energy than I'm putting in now. A huge amount of time and energy.

Also, fixing 4e isn't C4's focus. The focus is mostly just putting all of 4e's related options into convenient packages. Fixing the game's biggest problems is just something to do while I'm copy-pasting.

... *snigger*

*snort*

To be blunt, you're some dude with 11 posts, sniggering like an adolescent. Now, if you're through feeling superior and hero-worshipping the designers, I'll be more specific about the starlock problem.

It's not their damage output, and it's not anything that experienced players like you and I can't deal with. It's that the build is a trap for casual players; it's the only build in the game whose powers are split between two stats. But there's no clue as to that fact, without looking through all the starlock powers. Yeah, serious players look through their class powers anyway, but many casual players just want to pick powers that have those convenient (Star Pact) tags, or ones with Lovecraftian names. Starlock is the only build that actively punishes players for choosing obvious in-build options.

And that's why I constified the Lovecraftian/star pact powers that weren't already. A minor change, but it trashes the trap.

 

[Nyronus]

It's not their damage output, and it's not anything that experienced players like you and I can't deal with. It's that the build is a trap for casual players; it's the only build in the game whose powers are split between two stats.

Wrong. Any V class has this issue, and there is power and Feat support for playing a Dual-Primary Paladin, so you can't even weelde out of it with the "build" qualifier.

But there's no clue as to that fact, without looking through all the starlock powers. Yeah, serious players look through their class powers anyway, but many casual players just want to pick powers that have those convenient (Star Pact) tags, or ones with Lovecraftian names. Starlock is the only build that actively punishes players for choosing obvious in-build options.

And that's why I constified the Lovecraftian/star pact powers that weren't already.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the build description says rather plainly you should go for an even Con/Cha split, and while a total newb may not realize the issue it takes a grand total of, what? Twenty minutes before he realizes the AC is a problem? Its only a trap build if you completely ignore even the most basic issues. Its like, once again, playing a Fighter with 14 strength and a Greatsword and complaining that the build is a trap. There is enough Power and Feat support for people to play a Star'lock of either stripe, even a balanced 'lock. Total newbs may have issue, but that's about it. Then again, totaly newbs can have a lot of other problems. Modding the powers is nice and all, but it is not wholly necessary.

As for hero worshipping the designers; cute. I do love it when people associate honest admiration with stupidity. Apparently thinking some is doing a good job is a sign of idiocy.

I admire the designers because they do their jobs well, honestly a lot better than a good chunk of other RPG companies. Just ask someone about Exalted one day. Or 3.0. As for feeling superior, your the one who rolled into the forums touting the "Best Edition Never Published." The few no-brainer house rules mentioned in this thread ar hardly worth that title.

 

[eamon]

People do play trap builds. And it is, in any case, a waste of time for others. Worst yet is when players play trap builds for reasons they feel valid (roleplaying, for instance), and thereby saddle the DM with a large power-discrepancy between players.

A reasonably interested player can avoid them with some thought, but I've seen reasonably interested players not do so for roleplaying reasons...

Any house rule is in some sense a criticism of the base game - apparently it needs fixing. It's also praise: apparently, it's worth fixing.

A collected set of fixes could be interesting, so let's see what C4 ends up with... though I agree a set of changes (rather than complete copy-pastes) would help discussion if only to avoid copyright issues while posting on the forum.

 

[C4]

Wrong. Any V class has this issue, and there is power and Feat support for playing a Dual-Primary Paladin, so you can't even weelde out of it with the "build" qualifier.

No other build plainly labels its powers with (Star Pact) tags, and then splits those powers between two stats.

PS: I don't know what 'weelde' is, but I know that 'your' is possessive as in "Your hair looks great today." While 'you're' is a contraction of 'you are' as in "You're a great artist!"

Actually, I'm pretty sure the build description says rather plainly you should go for an even Con/Cha split, and while a total newb may not realize the issue it takes a grand total of, what? Twenty minutes before he realizes the AC is a problem? Its only a trap build if you completely ignore even the most basic issues. Its like, once again, playing a Fighter with 14 strength and a Greatsword and complaining that the build is a trap. There is enough Power and Feat support for people to play a Star'lock of either stripe, even a balanced 'lock. Total newbs may have issue, but that's about it. Then again, totaly newbs can have a lot of other problems. Modding the powers is nice and all, but it is not wholly necessary.

Look at the warlock chapter again; there actually isn't a build just for starlocks. They share a build with feylocks; suggested high stat is Cha, then Int, then Con. So yeah, it's a trap.

You may not think my starlock tweak is necessary, but at the end of the day, there's no good reason for a trap build to exist. Meanwhile there's at least one good reason to untrap such a build; one of 4e's tenets is to reduce system mastery -- to make it so that the obvious options are at least competitive with the not-so-obvious ones. Like eamon says, players have all kinds of reasons for choosing the obvious thematic choices, so why punish them for it?

I admire the designers because they do their jobs well, honestly a lot better than a good chunk of other RPG companies. Just ask someone about Exalted one day. Or 3.0. As for feeling superior, your the one who rolled into the forums touting the "Best Edition Never Published." The few no-brainer house rules mentioned in this thread ar hardly worth that title.

I respect the designers, but I recognize when they frak up. And yeah, I know my house rules are no-brainers. (Well, you might be surprised how many DMs are RAWtarded, but that's neither here nor there.) That's the point; 4e is pretty close to being exactly what it's meant to be, so it doesn't need an overhaul. Just a few tweaks.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

People do play trap builds. And it is, in any case, a waste of time for others. Worst yet is when players play trap builds for reasons they feel valid (roleplaying, for instance), and thereby saddle the DM with a large power-discrepancy between players.

wow... what a statement...

Someone playing a character beeing a waste of time for others... wow...