Balancing encounters for a 6 player party - help!

[Persiflage]

[snip] Dinosaur :: d20srd.org for stats.

It slaughtered them.

3 party members died, and because they were going so badly I ruled that it ate them the round after it killed them,

Lolwhut? How long do you suppose it takes a size Large creature (think "bear") to eat a Medium-sized one?

and so drank the undead cleric's 3 potions of Inflict Light Wounds he was going to use for himself, had he not been brutally killed,

It ate an undead in preference to warm meat? Really?

So basically, how do I balance encounters for 6 PCs so that this NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN?

You can't. Not this party. If you've got characters who are deliberately committing suicide, how the hell do you expect to not end up with a situation like this? It should have been a cakewalk, but your entire group is... erm... "unique". You're allowing someone to force creatures to ingest potions using a freakin' touch attack? What?

Ingested: Ingested poisons are virtually impossible to utilize in a combat situation. A poisoner could administer a potion to an unconscious creature or attempt to dupe someone into drinking or eating something poisoned. Assassins and other characters tend to use ingested poisons outside of combat.

A harmful potion is basically an ingested poison. The only way I'd allow someone to shove one down someone's throat is if they were pinned by another character, and even then it would be a full-round action...

Anyway, all that madness aside, we can't help you and here's why: you're not playing the same game as we are. Your players aren't playing the same game. I can understand (maybe) one character dying, but a party wipeout tells me these people are just not thinking. Not only that, but you're not playing by the rules, or even making reasonable house rules so far as I can tell. If you're allowing crazy cr*p like those potion touch attacks then what else are you hand-waving?

In general, particularly at very low levels, you need to increase the number of monsters rather than up the CR, because low-level parties may not have the ability to do anything to creatures of a higher CR. Abilities like incorporeality, bizarre movement modes, high spell resistance and/or AC, touch attacks, gaze attacks and whatnot are just plain undefeatable in the wrong circumstances for a party that doesn't yet have a wide range of options.

However, in this case, none of that applied. The party should absolutely have been able to own that dinosaur but they died instead. They didn't die because the CR of the encounter was messed up (there are CR3 creatures that probably should have killed them, but that wasn't one), they died because they acted like total muppets and there's no formulaic way of balancing the game that can save a party like that.

I suggest that all concerned spend a little time learning the rules and considering their options in combat outside of the game session. As pawsplay said, a simple grease spell (or caltrops if you want to get really minimalist) could have turned that fight around completely, as could a tanglefoot bag or even just some readied actions.

If your party are cooperating and using clever tactics and you're still wiping them out then you've got a valid concern about game balance and the chances are that there's something under your control that could fix the problem. However, this thread should have been entitled "Help! My players don't have a clue!"

 

[IronWolf]

There has been a lot of good advice already posted in this thread. Balancing encounters can be difficult, especially for lesser experienced players as it doesn't take long to get them in over their head.

In my experience the easiest way to scale an encounter up is to increase the number of combatants by a bit and if things are looking too easy, boost the HP up a bit as well to help the baddies stick around just a little longer.

As others have mentioned, putting in higher CR creatures sometimes backfires because they have more attacks or possibly better defenses the lower level characters don't stand a good shot of getting around just yet.

Just stick with it for now and you will start to get a feel of things as time goes on. It can be a learning process and does get easier as you get more experience as well.

 

[Whyareall]

Lolwhut? How long do you suppose it takes a size Large creature (think "bear") to eat a Medium-sized one?



It ate an undead in preference to warm meat? Really?



You can't. Not this party. If you've got characters who are deliberately committing suicide, how the hell do you expect to not end up with a situation like this? It should have been a cakewalk, but your entire group is... erm... "unique". You're allowing someone to force creatures to ingest potions using a freakin' touch attack? What?



A harmful potion is basically an ingested poison. The only way I'd allow someone to shove one down someone's throat is if they were pinned by another character, and even then it would be a full-round action...

Anyway, all that madness aside, we can't help you and here's why: you're not playing the same game as we are. Your players aren't playing the same game. I can understand (maybe) one character dying, but a party wipeout tells me these people are just not thinking. Not only that, but you're not playing by the rules, or even making reasonable house rules so far as I can tell. If you're allowing crazy cr*p like those potion touch attacks then what else are you hand-waving?

In general, particularly at very low levels, you need to increase the number of monsters rather than up the CR, because low-level parties may not have the ability to do anything to creatures of a higher CR. Abilities like incorporeality, bizarre movement modes, high spell resistance and/or AC, touch attacks, gaze attacks and whatnot are just plain undefeatable in the wrong circumstances for a party that doesn't yet have a wide range of options.

However, in this case, none of that applied. The party should absolutely have been able to own that dinosaur but they died instead. They didn't die because the CR of the encounter was messed up (there are CR3 creatures that probably should have killed them, but that wasn't one), they died because they acted like total muppets and there's no formulaic way of balancing the game that can save a party like that.

I suggest that all concerned spend a little time learning the rules and considering their options in combat outside of the game session. As pawsplay said, a simple grease spell (or caltrops if you want to get really minimalist) could have turned that fight around completely, as could a tanglefoot bag or even just some readied actions.

If your party are cooperating and using clever tactics and you're still wiping them out then you've got a valid concern about game balance and the chances are that there's something under your control that could fix the problem. However, this thread should have been entitled "Help! My players don't have a clue!"

Hey, I'm new to DMing d20 system. And said grapple-happy dude was playing an Apothecary, (could make Necromantic spells into potions), and didn't get a syringe feature til level 7, rendering that particular class feature useless without some house-ruling, and plus i looked frigging EVERYWHERE for something about forcefully ingested potions and didn't find any, plus he wanted to reroll, plus the sorcerer had bad spell selection, plus my players are goddamn lazy and haven't opened the PHB that I gave them, and all they know of the rules is what I've taught (in game), and I'm not the best teacher, to put it lightly, with the exception of the evil monk, and yes, they really don't have a clue. I have to direct the combat half the time.

Hmmm, when I put it like that, I think I'll throw random encounters for 20th level characters at them from now on. Thanks for the help!

 

[Whyareall]

Oh, and I've heard the monk is a bad class. So it says something about the party that the monk was the most effective combatant.

 

[radmod]

First off, you have to ask yourself: "What kind of DM do I want to be?"
Do you want to be challenging? A killer DM? An easy DM?

Are you DMing for yourself? Or the players? As one person has put it to me, "Isn't all about having fun?"
The problem is that it can be frustrating to do all that work and then have the players blow it. Then again you don't want to make it too easy, you want it to be challenging.

I'm taking a wild guess, and assuming that your group is young and relatively new to D&D. Likewise, they tend to be a bit chaotic in play and are thinking only of themselves and not the other players (and certainly not the DM!)
IMO, you have three choices: continue the way you are as long as everyone has fun, make it easier for your players, or simply play and let the consequences be what they are. You will make mistakes (we all do) and, IMO, you should correct YOUR mistakes, but not the player's errors.
In your dino example, you killed off half the party so it's really not all that bad that you fudged it in the end. The question is did everyone still have fun?
Unless you want to be an 'easy' DM (and possibly lose players who are looking for a challenge) don't overcompensate and make it too easy.
If you let the players suffer the consequences of their actions, you will likely start getting a party that works together and, more importantly, thinks.
If you feel YOU have made a mistake don't worry about fudging. Most DMs do it; often by faking the dice, that is, that '20' you rolled sure looks like a '2'. (Never let the players see your dice rolls.)

And, follow udalrich advice.

 

[athos]

A 6 player, level two party should slaughter 3 wolves... that seems right, but they should also kill rather easily most CR 3 encounters, assuming they are awake.

Try throwing some "easy" opponents at them. Like have goblins, warrior 3rd level, riding on those wolves. That would be 3 cr 1 goblins and 3 cr 1 wolves against 6 level 2 players, should be fine but more of a challenge. Don't cheap out either, give the goblins chainshirts, shields, lances, and if you want to be ornery, give the wolves studded barding. Yes, you are taking a chance if one of the goblins crits on a charge, it might take out a weaker PC, but hey, they call it adventuring for a reason. When the goblins charge with those lances, the PCs should learn pretty quickly to respect goblins If the PCs overcome them, the equipment is worth something if resold, so there is automatically some treasure for them.

Or, numbers are fun too. Make up a kobold encounter where they ambush the party, maybe at a bridge, or someplace that keeps the party mostly at a distance. 12 kobolds is a cr 3 encounter. Bump the CR to 4 since they will have location to their advantage. Give the little fellows 3 adepts and 9 warriors. The adepts carry wands of magic missiles, cl 1, 8-10 charges each. Give 3 warriors banded armor with shields and swords, and the other 6 crossbows. The 3 banded armor warriors will hold the bridge, while the others pepper the party at a distance. Once again, with some smart tactics, a lesser monster will quickly teach the party to respect them.

After a few of these type encounters where the party is pushed, but not slaughtered, you should have their attention and they should calm down and play smart. If they don't, there really isn't anything you can do. But using weaker opponents, that don't kill the characters outright, but cause them to use resources like hp and healing spells is a good way to get them into the swing of things and wear them down before the "exciting" final encounter of the adventure.

 

[frankthedm]

Lolwhut? How long do you suppose it takes a size Large creature (think "bear") to eat a Medium-sized one?

Errata made the 4 HD Deinonychus into Medium size rather than large. Mega raptor 8HD is the large one post errata.

 

[Whyareall]

A 6 player, level two party should slaughter 3 wolves... that seems right, but they should also kill rather easily most CR 3 encounters, assuming they are awake.

Try throwing some "easy" opponents at them. Like have goblins, warrior 3rd level, riding on those wolves. That would be 3 cr 1 goblins and 3 cr 1 wolves against 6 level 2 players, should be fine but more of a challenge. Don't cheap out either, give the goblins chainshirts, shields, lances, and if you want to be ornery, give the wolves studded barding. Yes, you are taking a chance if one of the goblins crits on a charge, it might take out a weaker PC, but hey, they call it adventuring for a reason. When the goblins charge with those lances, the PCs should learn pretty quickly to respect goblins If the PCs overcome them, the equipment is worth something if resold, so there is automatically some treasure for them.

Or, numbers are fun too. Make up a kobold encounter where they ambush the party, maybe at a bridge, or someplace that keeps the party mostly at a distance. 12 kobolds is a cr 3 encounter. Bump the CR to 4 since they will have location to their advantage. Give the little fellows 3 adepts and 9 warriors. The adepts carry wands of magic missiles, cl 1, 8-10 charges each. Give 3 warriors banded armor with shields and swords, and the other 6 crossbows. The 3 banded armor warriors will hold the bridge, while the others pepper the party at a distance. Once again, with some smart tactics, a lesser monster will quickly teach the party to respect them.

After a few of these type encounters where the party is pushed, but not slaughtered, you should have their attention and they should calm down and play smart. If they don't, there really isn't anything you can do. But using weaker opponents, that don't kill the characters outright, but cause them to use resources like hp and healing spells is a good way to get them into the swing of things and wear them down before the "exciting" final encounter of the adventure.

Hey, thanks! I never really thought of anything but just using monsters out of the MM, and maybe statting up a villain.

And does anyone know what the CR of a PC is? Is it just the ECL?

 

[athos]

And does anyone know what the CR of a PC is? Is it just the ECL?

The CR is the level for PCs.

What you will want to try and do is create encounters where the ECL is high and the CR is low, otherwise, 4 3rd level PCs will end up being a CR 7 encounter if you use the DMG for a guideline, and obviously they are nowhere near that powerful normally.

But, let's say you want to make an encounter with a sorcerer for your group. Make the sorcerer level 4, and give him glitterdust or some decent spell, maybe a minor wand as well, throw in some 3 orcs for a body guard and you have an encounter that is appropriate for your 2nd level party.

 

[radmod]

And be a bit cautious when you get to enemy 5th level Wiz/Sorcs because that's really when they start damaging everybody in single shots. Granted it's not high damage but I've always thought it as a jump in the power curve.