D&D 4E WotC's 4E Setting approach - was it a mistake?

[Verys Arkon]

I think they could do with a bit more adventure/mod support, either digitally or in paperback.

Agreed. I'm a busy DM and I use published settings to save time. What I really need are more setting-specific adventures. Sure I can usually modify a generic adventure for a generic setting like FR or PoL. For the more thematic settings, especially DS, generic adventures do the setting a disservice.

I don't need more setting books to help me make adventures, I just need the adventure.

Verys Arkon

 

[DEFCON 1]

Agreed. I'm a busy DM and I use published settings to save time. What I really need are more setting-specific adventures. Sure I can usually modify a generic adventure for a generic setting like FR or PoL. For the more thematic settings, especially DS, generic adventures do the setting a disservice.

I don't need more setting books to help me make adventures, I just need the adventure.

Verys Arkon

Well, for any of you folks out there that wants to get into game design or game writing... this might very well be an avenue writing for Dungeon that is not currently being done in the magazine and which WotC might be willing to pay for.

In pretty much most cases, generic adventures are preferred over setting-specific adventures because they get the most use for the most people. However... I would think more Conversion articles written for Dungeon that take the generic modules printed in past issues and then adapt them and place them in FR or Eberron or Dark Sun... might be quite useful and popular. Dungeon had a couple of these Conversion articles in Issue #155 at the very beginning of 4E where they basically fluffed out how/where Keep on the Shadowfell would fall in FR and Eberron... and there might very well be a market for additional articles like these.

All these Chaos Scar modules being presented? All we need is some enterprising writer to send an application into WotC for the chance to write an article saying "There are these couple modules that have appeared in these older issues of Dungeon, and this is how/where/why they could be placed in Eberron... with some changes we could make to NPCs / locations / monsters / fluff to make it setting-specific". What's good about this is that you don't have to be on the "inside" of WotC to do this... you just have to pick and choose adventures from previous issues that you can find really good hooks for to make cool conversions to your setting of choice. Even if the module is from a year ago, it is still able to be downloaded from the site, so a Conversion article about it is not out of the question.

If we could have one or two of these types of articles each month... it keeps the various settings alive and well, with new fluff articles related to those settings, helping folks generate ideas. And it might inspire people who don't currently subscribe to DDI but run games in these various settings to choose to do so... now that there are articles related to their campaign setting of choice.

All we need is one or more people willing to be creative and write them, and WotC willing to be creative and publish them.

 

[vaultdweller]

Don't forget the paperback novels. If you need more ideas you could try reading those.

Alternately, you could introduce your genitalia to a sledgehammer. That might be more enjoyable.

I do like to have more source material for a campaign world. Sure, I can make up all kinds of details to flesh out any world I run a campaign in... but those details aren't entirely useful. They're all in my head, and unless I start writing source books of my own to provide to my players, they don't have access to my thoughts.

I like to have a fully realized world, and have everyone involved on the same page about the contents of that world. I'd like to have more source books for the FR to support that, but at least I can fall back to sources like the FR wiki if need be.

 

[Mercurius]

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying their current approach is bad, but that it is questionable. I certainly do not think that WotC should re-release the same old splats for the same old settings, but at the same time I think a middle ground is possible, especially if they created a new setting.

After some more thought, this is the approach I would personally advocate:

• "Classic D&D Worlds": Release a "three-pack" campaign setting from the D&D corpus once a year, as they've been doing, although with a bit more detail on a "starter region" like Shadowdale, Baldur's Gate, or the Silver Marches. Continue minor to moderate support via DDI, with possibly an expansion setting book once a year, although it would depend upon the setting. We've already had the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dark Sun; next up could be Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Birthright, Mystara, etc. This line could be marketed as "D&D Classics," or something similar.
• New 4E Setting: Start a new campaign world, which would be the core setting for 4E, and support it in a somewhat similar manner to settings in the past. This could be the world of Nentir Vale or something new, but it would embody the "points of light" approach. Start with a deluxe box set that includes a campaign guide, a player's guide, a starting adventure, maybe a monster guide. Then release expansion books, about one per quarter, to fill out the setting.

So this approach offers the best of both worlds: We get to see old, classic settings updated for 4E, but we also get a new setting and in ongoing, great detail. I think this is lacking in 4E--as someone mentioned in that Eberron thread, there is a feeling that Eberron (and even more so, the FR) feel "dead." This would give 4E a living, evolving campaign world.

As for adventures, a starting one for each campaign setting is good but I think the best approach is to make them general enough to use in any setting, except perhaps a major adventure path for the core setting.

 

[Zaran]

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying their current approach is bad, but that it is questionable. I certainly do not think that WotC should re-release the same old splats for the same old settings, but at the same time I think a middle ground is possible, especially if they created a new setting.

I actually wouldn't mind if they re-release 4e versions of the older material. Alot of it wouldn't change at all since it's really just setting info. If they are worried that people wouldn't buy the new versions because they possess the old ones they can just put them in a hologram collecters edition cover or something. Of course, as someone who has older versions of the books I would buy them anyway because my old books are getting worn.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I actually wouldn't mind if they re-release 4e versions of the older material. Alot of it wouldn't change at all since it's really just setting info. If they are worried that people wouldn't buy the new versions because they possess the old ones they can just put them in a hologram collecters edition cover or something. Of course, as someone who has older versions of the books I would buy them anyway because my old books are getting worn.

You know... if you have to wrap your book in a hologram cover in order to get people to buy it... that's a pretty good indication you probably shouldn't be bothering to print it.

The only reason to reprint older campaign setting books would be to update the NPC info to 4E standards... and I'm pretty sure that's not a good reason to do so. It's just not economically worthwhile.

 

[Zaran]

You know... if you have to wrap your book in a hologram cover in order to get people to buy it... that's a pretty good indication you probably shouldn't be bothering to print it.

The only reason to reprint older campaign setting books would be to update the NPC info to 4E standards... and I'm pretty sure that's not a good reason to do so. It's just not economically worthwhile.

That isn't the only reason. Alot of people don't have the old books. And I was joking about the hologram thing. People will by 4e versions for the updated stats. Of course, they would have to also put in stuff that is new to dnd like Dragonborn and such. I was not implying that nothing would change.

 

[Alphastream]

I think WotC is right that economics do not justify much more support for settings. They talked about this extensively a few years back at a con and I think it makes sense. The number of people buying a "frozen north of world x" book is really low. Even past a setting and monster book, sales must drop pretty drastically.

When reissuing a setting, WotC has to consider the availability of the old material, which is usually fairly cheap via E-Bay and the like. How many would buy a new version of Slave Tribes or Elves of Athas? (Don't answer that, the collective answer will be pretty low). The vast majority of that information in those old books is applicable regardless of edition. (I use my old Dark Sun books all the time with the new 4E books)

It is important to support the world, but this can be done in other ways. Dark Sun has seen a ton of adventures released via D&DXP, Free RPG Day, Encounters, a gameday, Dark Sun Arena at Gen Con and PAX and an actual published adventure. We have seen a number of pretty good articles in Dungeon and Dragon magazines. This is a pretty good approach. The big fan can, with some effort, land a pretty impressive amount of content. I feel pretty good about my ability to run a 4E DS campaign thanks to all of this.

This sort of support did not happen for Eberon, and I think that has hurt the longevity of the setting. Then again, I am not a fan of the setting to begin with and I don't keep tabs on it.

What I would like to see is an attempt to bridge the old model and the new via content. A lot can be done with just a Sourcebook, monster book or player book, adventure, and some online articles.

For example, the horrible DS Marauders adventure could have instead been an adventure that filled in some knowledge gaps. It could have been about the veiled alliance, taking you on a tour of the city-states and thus capturing the essence of what Veiled Alliance did as a supplement (one of the best for finding the culture of each city-state!) while making an interesting adventure. Similarly, the Dark Sun Arena does a good job of capturing the feel of what is in the Gladiator's Handbook but could be quickly re-released with 2-3 more paragraphs per city and capture that supplement.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This sort of support did not happen for Eberon, and I think that has hurt the longevity of the setting. Then again, I am not a fan of the setting to begin with and I don't keep tabs on it.

This kind of support was not really necessary for Eberron, because the setting was (and is) still so new. We're talking a setting that was only released six years ago in 2004, with like over a dozen sourcebooks published for it. So people who buy the 4E Eberron Campaign and Player's Guides who discover they want more material can go to Ebay or Amazon or wherever and still find most of the 3E books readily available for sale.

Dark Sun NEEDS to have this amount of additional stuff, because the other campaign material already released was released like 20 years ago. So the odds of finding the same amount of stuff that you'd find for Eberron are pretty slim.

 

[Dedekind]

I definitely would like to see more adventures, either in DDI or actual publication. Really, it would be nice if third parties could put out adventures for the WotC settings. Best of both worlds?