WFRP3 - Agile Warriors?

[Thanee]

I'm wondering about this topic, so maybe someone who has more experience playing WFRP3 can answer it.

There are a few careers, that are basically agile warriors (i.e. the Wardancer), but I wonder how those can actually work?

Melee combat requires high Strength in order to excel at it (both attacking and dealing damage requires Strength). Weapon Skill is also important, but that is completely independent (i.e. all warrior careers have the same amount of weapon skill).

And to survive Toughess/Armour is all that matters (being fast and agile doesn't help at all with that).

Ok, there is the Dodge Action, but there is also Parry and Block, which work similar, so the only real advantage here is to be able to have two active defenses (one that also works against ranged attacks) without the necessity of carrying a shield, Parry and Dodge, and alternate between them while the other is still recharging. That seems to be about the only part where Agility actually helps in defending against melee attacks, and that is hardly much. Otherwise it's all about your Toughness/Armour.

Someone with a high Agility should be harder to hit.

Maybe there are some career specific Actions that address this (I havn't really looked for Wardancer specific Actions, for example; only played short games so far with a Human Initiate once and a Wood Elf Waywatcher the other time, so it didn't really come up in practice, yet), but the basic Actions from the Core Set certainly do not turn a moderate Strength high Agility character into a good warrior (I think there was one Action that was a melee attack but based on Agility instead of Strength).

It seems that the concept of the agile melee warrior does not work well in this game.

So, is there anything I missed? Or is the agile melee warrior simply not feasible?

Bye
Thanee

 

[C_M2008]

Well simply put WHFRP is gritty fantasy, nimble skill melee dudes aren't going to succeed against heavily armed, well armoured strong dudes very often.

As for defensively that's the whole point of dodge and improved dodge, you may also see that you get bonus dice with either of those for training a skill (I can't remember which off the top of my head). Its all about how you visualize it and how far you're willing to buy in to create the character.

To be fair being agile isnt going to lessen the impact of a blow (which toughness and armor handle as you stated), it can only help you avoid it, take improved dodge and take talents that let you remove recharge - or spend fortune to do so.

Weapon wise - there are few weapons that have greater impact by being more nimble, glad to see the game reflects this. You may be able to convince your GM to houserule something however.

In all practicality I'd advise going high strength and agility and flavour it as being nimble - the whole point of buying attributes is that one of them doesn't do everything.

 

[Thanee]

Well simply put WHFRP is gritty fantasy, nimble skill melee dudes aren't going to succeed against heavily armed, well armoured strong dudes very often.

Actually, backgroundwise (judging from the tabletop here), there are quite a few nimble dudes (like those Wardancers, but they are not the only ones, though that concept is surely most present with the elves) who should beat the crap out of a good number of strong dudes regularily. It's just that the concepts that make those work (better at attacking (i.e. higher weapon skill) or attacking more often) don't seem to exist in WFRP3.

Weapon wise - there are few weapons that have greater impact by being more nimble, glad to see the game reflects this.

Oh, I have no problem with Strength being used for the damage. That certainly makes sense. It is also clear, that some Strength is also required to wield a weapon effectively.

But Agility should usually also make it easier to hit someone (power isn't everything, precision and coordination is also very important) or make you harder to hit in some general way (i.e. give some natural Defense as long as you are not encumbered), not just against one attack every other round.

You may be able to convince your GM to houserule something however.

I do not play such a character (or even plan to do). In fact, I am more likely to be GM rather than player. Just wondering, whether they are a feasible choice. If Dodge (and Initiative) is pretty much the only thing, that makes Agility affect melee combat, I don't think they really are. Agile characters are probably better off being archers then.

Also, it's not like I am trying to squeeze that concept into the game world... there are careers that are built that way (i.e. Primary Attributes: Agility, but not Strength for a pure melee fighter). But when the rules don't support such concepts, why should one bother with those careers? The Wardancer seems to be a weaker combatant all around than a simple Thug (unless, of course, you use all your freebie points to buy up Strength and Toughness, but that can hardly be the point of that career). That's just wrong.

It's also kinda weird, that all those super elite warriors (Wardancers, Swordmasters, Ironbreakers, and whatnot) are basic careers, BTW.

In all practicality I'd advise going high strength and agility and flavour it as being nimble - the whole point of buying attributes is that one of them doesn't do everything.

Well, Strength seems to do so.

An idea for a house rule to make Agility more important could be adding a number of Fortune or Misfortune dice to the attack roll equal to the attacker's Agility - defender's Agility (white if positive, black if negative).

Bye
Thanee