Instant Friends

[UngeheuerLich]

Instant friends is to weak for a ritual.

It is a straight saving throw, so it is so oldschool that nothing about your ability or the opponents defense can increase/decrease your odds of charming...

So in the end, it is rather something to fall back on if something works not as intended, not something you use as a base strategy...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My main point is this Instant Friends power is simply a rote way of problem solving. You don't have to figure out how to ally with someone etc, instead all you have to do is pop off some power. The fact that it has a save is irrelevant, saving throws don't 'balance' anything. They may make it so unreliable you don't actually want to bother with it, but it doesn't solve any of the issues. Basically I want to know how it makes the game a BETTER game to have this kind of junk in there. I contend it doesn't. Ultimately it is one of those things that is a matter of opinion.

I think that the ritual subsystem has a LOT to recommend it, especially in these kinds of cases. The DM can decide the availability of rituals for instance. There is no really legitimate way to restrict players selection of powers. In 4e the assumption is any published power is automatically available to all characters who are qualified to use it. There is no real restriction on how much powers can be used either. Rituals can at least be expensive and/or have fairly strict requirements. Putting tons of restrictions on a power simply doesn't work well as it just makes the power too conditional to be worth bothering to select at all.

In other words I think the power version of this particular capability is a poor choice. It made much more sense as a ritual. People complaining that rituals have awkward restrictions on their use are barking up the wrong tree. Of course they do. They are supposed to. The challenge is to work around that. Aside from some very nominal purchase price the character is out nothing by acquiring a ritual, it is not a restricted resource they have to give up something else to get. There is no real opportunity cost, thus significant restrictions aren't a penalty to the character like they are for a power, just an obstacle to be overcome by creative players.

The more of this kind of questionable design decisions I see in Essentials material the less I'm inclined to play with it or buy it. I have no interest in going back to the swiss army knife 1e wizard that has a solution to every problem available at the snap of his fingers. It sucked IMHO.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

In the end, the charismatic rogue with bluff, or the paladin with diplomacy or the fighter with intimidate as a much better chance to make friends...

suggestion may even be better than instant friends, as you can actively increase your odds.

Instant friends can actually help for some kind of rituals: You can convince your best friend to willingly help you with an important ritual...

I know why you are not happy with those kind of spells... but there already were offenders before:
feather fall is so situational and has to compete with shield, that it is hardly to recommend.

I would really have liked to see beeing able to create focusses with rituals for instant use:

- a feather imbued with magic for instant feather fall use
- some kind of object to make someone your best friend (maybe you need to do something obvious like pour a dust on the object, that smells strangely etc.)

 

[P1NBACK]

My main point is this Instant Friends power is simply a rote way of problem solving. You don't have to figure out how to ally with someone etc, instead all you have to do is pop off some power. The fact that it has a save is irrelevant, saving throws don't 'balance' anything. They may make it so unreliable you don't actually want to bother with it, but it doesn't solve any of the issues. Basically I want to know how it makes the game a BETTER game to have this kind of junk in there. I contend it doesn't. Ultimately it is one of those things that is a matter of opinion.

I think that the ritual subsystem has a LOT to recommend it, especially in these kinds of cases. The DM can decide the availability of rituals for instance. There is no really legitimate way to restrict players selection of powers. In 4e the assumption is any published power is automatically available to all characters who are qualified to use it. There is no real restriction on how much powers can be used either. Rituals can at least be expensive and/or have fairly strict requirements. Putting tons of restrictions on a power simply doesn't work well as it just makes the power too conditional to be worth bothering to select at all.

In other words I think the power version of this particular capability is a poor choice. It made much more sense as a ritual. People complaining that rituals have awkward restrictions on their use are barking up the wrong tree. Of course they do. They are supposed to. The challenge is to work around that. Aside from some very nominal purchase price the character is out nothing by acquiring a ritual, it is not a restricted resource they have to give up something else to get. There is no real opportunity cost, thus significant restrictions aren't a penalty to the character like they are for a power, just an obstacle to be overcome by creative players.

The more of this kind of questionable design decisions I see in Essentials material the less I'm inclined to play with it or buy it. I have no interest in going back to the swiss army knife 1e wizard that has a solution to every problem available at the snap of his fingers. It sucked IMHO.

Yeah, I just don't get it.

Mage Hand is a way to avoid figuring out how to get that key off the guard's hook.

Prestidigitation is way to avoid figuring out how to light the fire without matches or flint/steel or sneak the gem out of the shop without the owner seeing it.

Feather Fall is a way to avoid worrying about standing on that tall ledge.

Daunting Presence is basically the same as the +5 bonus that the Fighter got when he trained in Intimidate.

Float defeats any purpose of being good at swimming in water.

Disguise Self or Phantom Mask... let's not even get into those powers that seem more like rituals.

I mean, it's magic. That's what magic does in a fantasy game. It's always been that way throughout D&D's history.

Rituals... If it were a ritual that had the same effect what would be the difference? I think that's kind of a weird argument. In once instance, you're arguing against the effects of the power. Then, you're saying it'd be cool if it were a ritual. Hmmm. Just doesn't make sense to me.

I like the power and hope they continue to produce magic effects like this.

As far as the "swiss army knife" effect, I believe this is a daily. And, in many cases, you're still going to need Charisma and skills. So, I don't think this overrides anything in 4E, at least not as much as other Wizard utilities and cantrips already do.

 

[Stalker0]

I like the power, I just wish it scaled a bit more with level.

Like

Level - 10: Save - 5
Level -5: Save
Level: Save +5
Level +5: Save +10


To me, being able to charm low ranked guys is just part of being high level an awesome, no problem with that.

But the fact that with a few save penalty items/feats...that I can be a 5th level wizard and have a alright chance of making Orcus my buddy for 4 hours might be a little much. I would just scale up the save bonus for the really high level differences and ti would be fine.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The difference is this power is FAR more general in its applicability than other powers. The problem with your argument is that it is easily dispelled by reductio ad absurdum. Obviously there are powers that theoretically could exist that would be unacceptable. By your logic ANYTHING is fair game. Once you accept that any possible theoretical power is not acceptable then you want to look at the ACTUAL powers that already exist. Instant Friends stands out like a sore thumb.

As I've said before, there are a NUMBER of key differences between a ritual and a power. With a power the DM has to balance the opportunity cost vs the utility (since the actual effects of the power are effectively entirely on the DM's shoulders). With a ritual no such balancing need be done. The DM can make it as useful or useless as he cares to. At most the player is out the cost of buying/transcribing the ritual.

Instant Friends is almost GUARANTEED to be a point of contention EVERY time it is used. What exactly happens when you toss it on an enemy and then initiate combat with that enemy's allies? This is going to happen nearly every adventuring day.

Then there is the effect of this kind of thing on plot development. Now, granted in theory the ritual has a similar issue here, but given that it really cannot be used against anyone hostile to you and is otherwise fairly easy for the DM to make it impossible to pull off in a situation he's not interested in having it work in the issue is a lot less. You have NO idea when a PC wizard is going to pop off the power and most players are clever enough to cotton to the golden opportunities they WILL get. Trust me, I've DMed since literally forever, I know whereof I speak. You're just not going to like it.

On top of that if this is the standard for powers in 4e now then what's next? Charm Person was a royal PITA but there are PLENTY of other equally poor choices of older spells to bring back. If the criteria is low enough that one as questionable as CP is being resurrected then what next? I really don't want to know. Not every single possible wizardly magical power that could possibly exist SHOULD exist.

 

[P1NBACK]

The difference is this power is FAR more general in its applicability than other powers. The problem with your argument is that it is easily dispelled by reductio ad absurdum. Obviously there are powers that theoretically could exist that would be unacceptable. By your logic ANYTHING is fair game. Once you accept that any possible theoretical power is not acceptable then you want to look at the ACTUAL powers that already exist. Instant Friends stands out like a sore thumb.

I find that Instant Friends falls right alongside those powers I mentioned above. If you can disguise all of your allies as the enemies with a spell, then why not be able to turn an enemy (that you've somehow gotten to engage with outside of combat) into a trusted ally? There's already precedent for powers like this, and considering people wanted more "utility" spells that were useful outside of combat, I don't see the problem here.

As I've said before, there are a NUMBER of key differences between a ritual and a power. With a power the DM has to balance the opportunity cost vs the utility (since the actual effects of the power are effectively entirely on the DM's shoulders). With a ritual no such balancing need be done. The DM can make it as useful or useless as he cares to. At most the player is out the cost of buying/transcribing the ritual.

I don't understand why for you it's ok for a DM to "balance" a ritual but not a power...

Instant Friends is almost GUARANTEED to be a point of contention EVERY time it is used. What exactly happens when you toss it on an enemy and then initiate combat with that enemy's allies? This is going to happen nearly every adventuring day.

As much contention as using Bluff or Diplomacy or Intimidate? Clearly, the power spells out the situation you describe. The enemy won't risk life or property for you.

Or, let me put it this way. If you had a friend, a trusted friend. That friend, had other friends that you didn't like. You show up to "beat up" your trusted friends friends. Is that guy going to be your friend anymore? I think common sense here dictates the result, depending on the fiction, the same way a Diplomacy check to befriend someone would.

Then there is the effect of this kind of thing on plot development. Now, granted in theory the ritual has a similar issue here...

No, not in theory. In practice.

...but given that it really cannot be used against anyone hostile to you and is otherwise fairly easy for the DM to make it impossible to pull off in a situation he's not interested in having it work in the issue is a lot less. You have NO idea when a PC wizard is going to pop off the power and most players are clever enough to cotton to the golden opportunities they WILL get. Trust me, I've DMed since literally forever, I know whereof I speak. You're just not going to like it.

I've DM'd "forever" too and this is the most refined version of "Charm" spell I've seen. It gives the DM a clear guideline for not allowing it to be a "win button" and also empowers the player to use magic to befriend an NPC where the DM might not allow it with a Diplomacy check. Seems like an excellent power to me.

Might it derail your plot? Sure. The solution is simple: don't make a plot on rails with predetermined solutions.

This is exactly the kind of power I want my players to have.

That's coming from an "experienced" DM.

On top of that if this is the standard for powers in 4e now then what's next? Charm Person was a royal PITA but there are PLENTY of other equally poor choices of older spells to bring back. If the criteria is low enough that one as questionable as CP is being resurrected then what next? I really don't want to know. Not every single possible wizardly magical power that could possibly exist SHOULD exist.

If they can resurrect them as elegantly as they've resurrected Charm Person (Instant Friends), then I hope so!

Abdul, I don't wanna turn this into a big thing. I just think you're having a bit of "knee-jerk" here instead of objectively looking at the power for what it is. Does it break the mold of most 4E powers? Sure. Are there precedents for powers like this? Absolutely.

I'd love to hear some feedback of actual play using this power.

 

[Truename]

"Friends" Throughout the Ages

Somebody mentioned interest in seeing the original versions of these spells. I happen to have copies of all the AD&D PHBs, so I looked it up:

[sblock=AD&D]

[sblock=Charm Person]

Level: 1
Range: 12"
Duration: Special
Area of Effect: One person
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 segment
Saving Throw: Neg.

Explanation/Description: Except as shown above, this spell is the same as the second level druid spell, charm person or mammal (q.v.), but the magic-user can charm only persons, i.e. brownies, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, and troglodytes. All other comments regarding spell effects apply with respect to persons.

[And the Druid spell says...] Explanation/Description: This spell will affect any single person or mammal it is cast upon. The creature then will regard the druid who cast the spell as a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected. The spell does not enable the druid to control the charmed creature as if it were an automaton, but any word or action of the druid will be viewed in its most favorable way. Thus, a charmed creature would not obey a suicide command, but might believe the druid if assured that the only chance is to save the druid's life is if the creature holds back an onrushing red dragon for "just a round or two". Note also that the spell does not empower the druid with linguistic capabilities beyond those he or she normally possesses. The duration of the spell is a function of the charmed creature's intelligence, and it is tied to the saving throw. The spell may be broken if a saving throw is made, and this saving throw is checked on a periodic basis according to the creature's intelligence:

Intelligence Score (Period Between Checks)
3 or less (3 months)
4 to 6 (2 months)
7 to 9 (1 month)
10 to 12 (3 weeks)
13 to 14 (2 weeks)
15 to 16 (1 week)
17 (3 days)
18 (2 days)
19 or more (1 day)

[/sblock]

[sblock=Friends]

Level: 1
Range: 0
Duration: 1/round per level
Area of Effect: 1" + !"/level of spell caster radius sphere
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 segment
Saving Throw: Special

Explanation/Description: A friends spell causes the magic-user to gain a temporary increase of 2-8 points in charisma--or a temporary lowering of charisma by 1-4 points--depending on whether creatures within the area of effect of the spell make--or fail--their saving throw versus magic. Those that fail their saving throw will be very impressed with the spell caster and desire greatly to be his or her friend and help. Those that do not fail will be uneasy in the spell caster's presence and tend to find him or her irritating. Note that this spell has absolutely no effect on creatures of animal intelligence or lower. The components for this spell are chalk (or white flour), lampblack (or soot), and vermillion [sic] applied to the face before casting the spell.

[/sblock]

Related spells are Charm Monster, a level 4 spell first usable at level 7, and Mass Charm, a level 8 spell first usable at level 16.

[/sblock]

[sblock=AD&D 2nd Edition]

[sblock=Charm Person (Enchantment/Charm)]

Range: 120 yards
Components: V, S
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: 1 person
Saving Throw: neg

This spell affects any single person it is cast upon. The term person includes any bipedal human, demihuman, or humanoid of man-size or smaller, such as brownies, dryads, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, troglodytes, and others. Thus a 10th-level fighter could be charmed, but an ogre could not.

The person receives a saving throw vs. spell to avoid the effect, with any adjustments due to Wisdom (see Table 5). If the person receives damage from the caster's group in the same round the charm is cast, an additional bonus of +1 per hit point of damage received is added to the victim's saving throw.

If the spell recipient fails his saving throw, he regards the caster as a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected. The spell does not enable the caster to control the charmed creature as if it were an automaton, but any word or action of the caster is viewed in the most favorable way. Thus, a charmed person would not obey a suicide command, but he might believe the caster if assured that the only chance to save the caster's life is for the person to hold back an onrushing red dragon for "just a round or two." Note also that the spell does not endow the caster with linguistic capabilities beyond those he normally possesses (i.e., he must speak the victim's language to communicate his commands).

The duration of the spell is a function of the charmed person's Intelligence and is tied to the saving throw. The spell may be broken if a successsful saving throw is rolled, and this saving throw is checked on a periodic basis, according to the creature's Intelligence (see the following table). If the caster harms, or attempts to harm, the charmed person by some overt action, or if a dispel magic spell is successfully cast upon the charmed person, the charm spell is broken.

If two or more charmeffects simultaneously affect a creature, the result is decided by the DM. This could range from one effect being clearly dominant, to the subject being torn by conflicting desires, to new saving throws that could negate both spells.

Note that the subject has full memory of the events that took place while he was charmed.

Intelligence Score (Period Between Checks)
3 or less (3 months)
4 to 6 (2 months)
7 to 9 (1 month)
10 to 12 (3 weeks)
13 to 14 (2 weeks)
15 to 16 (1 week)
17 (3 days)
18 (2 days)
19 or more (1 day)

Note: The period between checks is the time period during which the check occurs. When to roll this check during this time is determined (randomly or by selection) by the DM. The roll is made secretly.

[/sblock]

[sblock=Friends (Enchantment/Charm)]

Range: 0
Components: V,S, M
Duration: 1d4 rounds + 1 round/level
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: 60-foot radius
Saving Throw: Special

A friends spell causes the wizard to temporarily gain 2d4 points of Charisma. Intelligent creatures within the area of effect at the time the spell is cast must make immediate reaction checks based on the character's new Charisma. Those with favorable reactions tend to be very impressed with the spellcaster and make an effort to be his friends and help him, as appropriate to the situation. Officious bureaucrats might decide to become helpful; surly gate guards might wax informative; attacking orcs might spare the caster's life, taking him captive instead. When the spell wears off, the creatures realize that they have been influenced, and their reactions are determined by the DM.

The components for this spell are chalk (or white flour), lampblack (or soot), and vermilion [sic] applied to the face before casting the spell.

[/sblock]

Related spells are Charm Monster, a level 4 spell first usable at level 7, and Mass Charm, a level 8 spell first usable at level 16.

[/sblock]

[sblock=D&D 3.5 Edition]

[sblock=Charm Person]

Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly; see Influencing NPC Attitudes, page 72). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but a charmed fighter, for example, might believe you if you assured him that the only chance to save your life is for him to hold back an onrushing red dragon for "just a few seconds." Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

[/sblock]

Related spells are Charm Monster, a level 4 spell first usable at level 7, Dominate Person, a level 5 spell first usable at level 9, Charm Monster, Mass, a level 8 spell first usable at level 15, Dominate Monster, a level 9 spell first usable at level 17. There is no Friends spell or equivalent that I saw.

[/sblock]

[sblock=D&D 4th Edition]

And, for completeness...

[sblock=Instant Friends (Wizard Utility 2)]

Your magic infuses your words with the power of persuasion, clouding a creature's mind and tricking it into thinking of you as its dearest friend.
Daily * Arcane, Charm, Enchantment
Standard Action
Ranged 10
Requirement: You must use this power outside a combat encounter.
Target: One creature

Effect: The target makes a saving throw. THe saving throw has a +5 bonus if the target is the same level as you or a higher level. It takes a -5 penalty if the target is a lower level than you or does not have a level.

If the saving throw succeeds, this power has no effect. The target is aware that you used this power on it if it is the same level as you or a higher level. Otherwise, it does not know you used this power.

On a failed saving throw, the target treats you as a trusted friend for 1d4 hours. It truthfully answers all question s you ask and aids you in any way it can as long as doing so does not risk its life or property. While the target is under this effect, you gain a +5 power bonus to Bluff checks against it.

This effect ends if you or any of your allies attacks the target or any of its allies. Afterward, the target doesn't remember that you used this power on it.

[/sblock]

[sblock=Suggestion (Wizard Utility/Cantrip)]

You wave arcane power through your words, infusing each phrase with persuasive magic.
Encounter * Arcane
Free Action
Personal
Trigger: You make a Diplomacy check.

Effect: You make an Arcana check instead, using that result to determine the outcome of the Diplomacy check.

[/sblock]

A related spell is Otto's Song of Fidelity, a level 12 utility spell for the enchantment school. Otto is very similar to Instant Friends, but acts on each creature in a close burst 10. There's also Mass Charm, a level 17 spell, but it's an attack power with strictly-prescribed results, so it's not really similar. Both of these spells are from Heroes of the Fallen Lands.

Also related are Glib Tongue, a level 2 spell (renamed from Fast Friends in November last year), and Words of Deceit, a level 10 spell. Both of these were published in Dragon 381 in "Class Acts: Wizard Spells of the Feywild" by Mike Mearls. There are also numerous other spells that impose the "dominated" condition.

I didn't find any rituals with Arcana as the key skill, other than Bard rituals, that were similar.

[/sblock]

 

[Gradine]

I wholeheartedly embrace this power and hope for more to come across the power sources. I always felt there was a huge gap between "combat and skill challenge powers" and "long rituals" and this power bridges that gap. I'm not entirely sold on taking up a Utility spot for it... sure the Wizard's got a spellbook. But if other characters get out-of-combat abilities (and they should) they'll have to sacrifice combat utility to do it. I suppose this is how it was in earlier editions too. Having some kind of insta-ritual (maybe through feats?) might be a better way.

As for the ongoing debate over whether Instant Friends breaks anything, remember the limitations. I can use Bluff to trick a person into risking their life for me, Intimidate to make them give me their stuff. Hell, I could use all three social skills to do either of those. These I cannot do with Instant Friends. Anything I could do with Instant Friends I could do better with social skills, with the added perk that the person doesn't feel completely mentally violated afterward. This does not mean Instant Friends does not have its place. But this power is not an "I win" button, it's a "We don't have time for sweet-talking" button. In this sense it's frankly a little underpowered, and if a Wizard takes it they better hope their DM makes the effort to present them with situations where using it is a sensible (or the only) option.

 

[Victim]

I vastly preferred the Charm utility powers that worked with the skill system (bonuses, rerolls, skill replacement, success modification in skill challenges) to the horrible kludge of Instant Friends, which tends to replace it, and uses an essentially unprecedented and incredibly swingy resistance mechanic.