Instant Friends

[MrMyth]

Getting a leader to help you out is a sample Skill Challenge in the DMG. Obviously, it's exactly the sort of thing Skill Challenges are meant to be. Maybe someone who follows Dungeon mag or runs official module could chime in with a few more examples of 'befriending' (getting help or information or whatever from) an individual?

That's a solid ruling - treat it as a successful diplomacy check, so 1 success on the skill challenge. Not every DM will come up with that ruling, since the spell description is so vague.

I think you are missing my point a bit. It's one that has been true for skill challenges from the beginning - they can't be something that one single check could solve on its own.

If you are in a skill challenge to persuade a leader to help you, there has to be a reason the skill challenge does not already end after the first successful diplomacy check. If all you need to do to succeed at the skill challenge is befriend the leader, there is already an issue with the skill challenge.

Negotiating with a leader in the DMG is not just trying to make him your friend, it is trying to get tangible assistance from him - in the form of treasure or equivalent aid. (Something that this power specifically can't do.) The skill challenge requires not just befriending the leader (Diplomacy), but also persuading him that helping the PCs is in his best interests (Insight, History).

The fact you can spend a power to freely succeed at one aspect of the challenge doesn't mean the entire challenge is over.

This situation already exists elsewhere. The party gets to a raging river that they need to cross, which the DM has designed as a skill challenge. Turns out the Wizard can cast Fly - thus bypassing the Athletics check to swim through the river. How does the DM respond?

One option is to note that Fly just lets the Wizard succeed, and doesn't help his friends. One free success for the Wizard - everyone else still needs to swim. You could apply the same here - the leader likes the Wizard. But he still doesn't trust his comrades. "How well do you really know them? Are you sure they have our best interests at heart?" More convincing needs to be done to gain his assistance.

Another option is that the DM improvises some new obstacles. Fly provides a free success or two, but the Wizard might need to make some other check to avoid drawing notice from enemies while flying, or may have to deal with weather that makes flying difficult. Or as they fly overhead, they notice someone drowning in the river, and need to swim after them to get them. With Instant Friends, they still need to help justify the leader giving them what they want - perhaps not just with him, but with his seneschal. Perhaps they need to find a way to convince his bodyguards that he hasn't been magically influenced. Etc.

Finally, you might let the spell bypass the encounter, but introduce a different skill challenge later. Maybe the use of magic attracted the attention of wild native spirits, and they later need to fend them off. Similarly, when Instant Friends wears off, they have to deal with the fallout - maybe the leader loses influence because of his bad judgement with the PCs. Maybe rumors spread that they enchant others to do their bidding. Either one, some other issue arises because of this that they have to deal with.

In the end, sure, not every DM will come up with answers like these. But this isn't anything new. What happens if you have a wilderness skill challenge and the party teleports to their destination? Or flies over your obstacle? Or decides to just blow up your cleverly locked door? Rituals and powers have always been able to introduce the need for a DM to think on the spot with Skill Challenges, and this one power doesn't change that.

In the end, I still haven't seen any actual situations described in which this spell would be abusive.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think you are missing my point a bit. It's one that has been true for skill challenges from the beginning - they can't be something that one single check could solve on its own.

A single Diplomacy check doesn't make someone into a trusted friend. If Instant Friends mechanically gave you a complete success on a Diplomacy check, it wouldn't be an issue, it would mesh seamlessly with the mechanics of Skill Challenges. Instead, it does something ambiguous that could well bypass any skill challenge involving a single creature - trying to get aid might be one objective, but simply being allowed to pass through territory might be the idea, or to gain information.

(Man, deja vu, I /know/ I've run into exactly this circular argument on here sometime before.... weird).

The only 'single check' involved here is the save vs Instant Friends, and the fact that the utility could resolve a skill challenge in one check is why the utility is problematic, not evidence that the skill challenge shouldn't have been a skill challenge in the first place!

 

[MrMyth]

A single Diplomacy check doesn't make someone into a trusted friend. If Instant Friends mechanically gave you a complete success on a Diplomacy check, it wouldn't be an issue, it would mesh seamlessly with the mechanics of Skill Challenges. Instead, it does something ambiguous that could well bypass any skill challenge involving a single creature - trying to get aid might be one objective, but simply being allowed to pass through territory might be the idea, or to gain information.

(Man, deja vu, I /know/ I've run into exactly this circular argument on here sometime before.... weird).

I'm not sure what is circular about anything I've said.

Again - say our goal is to convince Lord Samuel to send us a company of troops to fight some orcs. If this is a Skill Challenge, there has to be a reason why a single Diplomacy check isn't all that is needed. By the DM deciding to use a Skill Challenge, you are already deciding that things are more complicated than simply getting someone to like you.

In the context of a Skill Challenge, it may play out like this - I tell Lord Samuel of our many deeds and our just cause, impressing him as best I can. I roll an exceptional Diplomacy check.

In response, he nods, and says, "Your words are righteous and I can see you are a man of great honor! But while I commend your goals, we have other threats to deal with, and I hesitate to send any of my troops away at this dangerous time..."

How is this any difference from: I meet with Lord Samuel and explain the situation, charming him with Instant Friends.

In response, he nods, and says, "My friend, I want nothing more than to aid you in your righteous quest! But what you ask is no simple matter - if I am to send my men into danger, it must be for the good of the kingdom, and not just at your word alone."

Let's go a step further and take Instant Friends out of the picture entirely. Say we've already saved the kindom once. Say we are already friends with Lord Samuel. Does that mean that, if we suddenly decide we need an army to go attack some foes, he will automatically turn one over to us? Or let us simply claim all the treasure he has at his possession?

Why would friendship, real or compelled, override all other aspects of a challenge? If the challenge is that simple, it was a bad idea to make it a Skill Challenge in the first place.

Now, even so... it may be possible that there could exist some challenge that this trivializes. (Though no actual examples of such have been given). But as I noted - this already exists. Movement based powers and rituals overcoming movement based challenges. Teleportation or other rituals bypassing the possibly for certain challenges entirely. Various magic items with unique abilities can unravel challenges. Rituals already exist to influence people and create friendship. Etc.

I gave an example - how the Fly spell might impact a river-crossing Skill Challenge. And various ways a DM might respond. How is that any different than this situation?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I really don't like this power. Charm Person and similar spells caused the most arguments hands down in previous editions. There is no way to balance them effectively.

I already know at least one DM who will consider this power to mean "You succeed at all Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight, Intimidate, and Streetwise checks against one NPC for 4 hours." This means that if we ever get into a Skill Challenge that involves using any combination of those skills and requires 8 or 10 successes, then we just get the XP for free.

I mean, imagine a skill challenge that involves slowly convincing a King to help you, and you need to bring up good points, each point you bring up allows you a Diplomacy check and eventually he is convinced. The rationale behind this being that the King considers adventurers untrustworthy and needs to be convinced of their intentions and the worthiness of their cause.

Of course, is the King really going to turn down his best friend when he asks for some help? Is he really going to tell his best friend that his cause isn't worth the effort? Using this power wins the entire Skill Challenge.

Also, it'll let you use an NPC to do all your dirty work. I've seen Charm Person used in this way before. You simply use it on a random passerby in the middle of the street then you don't have to worry about drawing attention to yourselves. The enemy might be watching out for anyone asking about something, so they'll never know it was you...you have Random Charmed Guy ask about it for you. Enemy know who you are and you need to go get something without being seen? No problem, RCG can do that for you.

In fact, if you think hard enough, you can use it to replace almost every skill in the game. No one able to disarm traps? RCG trusts you like a best friend, simply lie to him about whether there are traps and he'll walk right into them. Or charm a locksmith to open your chests for free. Or charm a sage to do hours of research for you. Or charm the leader of a group of thugs into intimidating someone for you.

It's just way more powerful than every other utility power at that level.

The other problem might be the reverse. The other argument we always used to have is when DMs didn't allow you to get any information at ALL from someone when you used the power. I know at least one DM who believes that people don't tell their best friends anything even slightly secret and refuse to do anything for their best friends that even takes the slightest bit of effort. We'd cast Charm Person on a guard and they'd refuse to let us past because they were afraid they'd lose their job, they wouldn't tell us what they'd seen inside the castle because they were afraid they'd lose their job, they wouldn't leave their post, they wouldn't tell us if there were any other entrances. The spell might have been completely useless.

So, the problem is, the power is one of the most powerful spells in the game at one table, and the worst power in the game at another. I was glad 4e had gotten rid of all the powers that required so much DM intervention. I'm sorry to see them come back.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Now lets get that level 17 fighter power that disarms and takes away the enemy weapon down to level 2 please.

Haha, actually yeah, I'd love to see the disarm rule as some kind of basic attack back in the game. It should be quite hard to achieve, but it should at least be able to be attempted by a 1st level PC vs a 1st level foe. More options isn't bad.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm not sure what is circular about anything I've said.

I thought I saw "A skill challenge shouldn't be something that can be resolved in a single check, Instant Friends resolves something with a single check, therefore anything it resolves shouldn't have been a skill challenge."

Now, even so... it may be possible that there could exist some challenge that this trivializes. (Though no actual examples of such have been given).

How many would you like?


The party must convince a suspicious, unfriendly merchant, to allow them to secretly accompany his carravan, so they can draw out the band of brigands they're after. The merchant has a rival thinks this could be a plot of his to sabotage his business, and doesn't believe in the threat the brigains pose. The players must provide proof that the threat is real, that they can handle it, and that they aren't in the pay of his rival. But, if one of the adventureres is a trusted friend - no problem!


The party must convince a very powerful, capricious fey to tell them of a secret way into a castle in the feywild - and, incidentally, not kill them as it is sadistic when bored. The DM intends that the party find ways to 'entertain' the creature (intimidate to tell a scary ghost story, bluff to tell a hillarious joke, accrobatics to juggle, etc), amusing it enough that it wants to see what will happen should they get inside. But, hey if it likes and trusts one of the characters...


the party needs information about the criminal underground, and they have a snitch in custody. But, he's terrified - of the PCs, the crime boss, just about everything, really. The PCs must not just convince him of their sincerity and he rightness of talking, but convince him they can protect him. If only they had someone he trusted....


The party needs access to the archives of a temple. The archivist is a cranky fellow at best, and strongly disaproves of adventurers on general principle, prefering the company of his friends in the local intelligencia (with whom he often trades rare books). But, he's known to be susceptible to bribery and curiosity, both. He also has the temple's Avenger guards to defend him if anyone tries anything. The DM envisions a series of diplomacy or bluff checks, a cash bribe, maybe even a side quest to acquire a rare book, in return for what they need.


The party is taken prisoner by the kobold minions of a dragon, and taken before it as 'sacrifices.' The kobolds obey the dragon unquestioningly, so only the Dragon's opinion of the adventurers matters. The party needs to escape with their skins, but the dragon is canny and untrusting, by nature, but greedy. It might be prevailed upon to let the party go in return for a sufficient bribe and more to come, if it can be convinced to trust them.


The party come accross a village that has been raised to the ground. There is one terrified, near-catatonic survivor, a small child. He knows who destroyed the village, what powers they used, and where they headed. But, he is far too terrified to so much as converse, and everyone he knew or trusted died before his eyes. The DM envisions a series of heal checks to help the boy recover physical, social checks to win his trust, and a key History check or two to come up with facts about the village that might make them seem more familiar and normal to him, snapping him out of it enough to answer their questions.



OK, so there's a few samples.


Now, it is true that a utility like Arcane Gate can bypass a skill challenge like "climbing to the top of a 50' cliff while being harrassed by stirges." But, it /is/ a 10th level utility, and climbing a modest distance isn't exactly a challenge for most 10th level characters, anyway. Similarly, a 'trek across a desert' might be trivialized by a high-level, expensive, teleportation ritual.

Social challenges, though, happen at all levels. From negotiating with a petty official of a small town at 1st, to interceding with a Deity over the fate of worlds at 30th. They're not the kind of thing that should be obviated by a low-level ritual.

Arguably, Instant Friends might not work at higher level for a variety of cooked-up-on-the-spot reasons, and might or might not bypass this or that specific skill challenge (including all my examples, above) depending on how the DM read the power that day, and how argumentative the player wanted to get. (Groups are like any other set of personal relationships, sometimes, you choose your battles). Clear rules avoid such problems.


I hope to see Instant Friends errata'd to modify a Diplomacy check or provide an automatic success on diplomacy or something else in keeping with the general power and precedents of lowest-level utilities.

 

[nookiemonster]

I can see Instant Friends being really useful for situations where the PCs have captured a monster after combat, and want to interrogate it. Perhaps Intimidate isn't working. Instant Friends and blammo! it's co-operative for 1d4 hours. As a DM, I'd allow that. I think that maybe that's what they had in mind when they wrote it.

If the PCs are trying to use in an audience with the King... well, exactly what level IS the King? I haven't rolled up combat stats for the guy because I don't expect the PCs to be stupid enough to try to kill him. If Wally the Wizard announces he's using Instant Friends, I tell him "You know that using magic on the King is considered an assault on the King, which is treason, punishable by death. Oh, and he has advisors who are trained in Arcana and are constantly watching for that. You'd need to succeed on a Hard stealth check to hide the attempt... and you'll need to use Bluff to cover for the King's sudden change in attitude... and there are various courtiers who will resent the King's favouritism towards you... You sure you want to do that?" Any attempt by PCs to use it as an I-win button is ruled an instant fail.

 

[LostSoul]

I think this spell would be awesome in my game. I use a different approach to Extended Rests, Encounters, and Skill Challenges, and in that context I think it would be really interesting to see when the players choose to use the spell.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Mike Mearls has his name tied to Instant Friends because his name is on the cover.

But he's also been the loudest voice supporting skill challenges, as evidenced by his long-running 'Ruling Skill Chellenges' column in Dungeon among other things.

How do these two facts square?

It's probably important to note that the way skill challenges work has changed significantly from the PHB to the new Rules Compendium.

 

[Truename]

It's probably important to note that the way skill challenges work has changed significantly from the PHB to the new Rules Compendium.

I didn't really read it that way--more that they had finally figured out how to make the math for skill challenges work properly. More of a "we can have skill DCs that work for stand-alone checks and for skill challenges." But I don't remember reading anything that fundamentally changed the way skill challenges work.