Why the Modern D&D variants will not attract new players

I think the character sheet should fit on a single-sided sheet, or really two-sided at most at higher levels. Having 4-5 sheets at low-level and 5-7 sheets at higher levels makes no sense to me.

The DDI monster builder allows a creature to be printed in a single box. Simplify the darn character sheet output and allow it to all be on a single-sided sheet! For example, there is no need to put passive abilities on the character sheet, nor is it useful to provide the details of how your defenses are calculated.

There should be a calculation sheet used to calculate your stats, and then an output sheet for use during the game. The DDI should provide both upon demand.

I know this isn't the entire answer to the OP's concern, but it would be so simple as a first step with the available software.

Sky
 

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Jhaelen said:
I'm suggesting that a game involving complete newbies is extremely unlikely to still have the same cast of characters after a couple of sessions. Are you honestly expecting you'll be playing all of those characters for years to come?

I know one game that had been running several years, and then a character ran out of raises (AD&D 2e, IIRC) and despite the cajoling of the DM, nobody wanted to continue if one player had a new character. That seems much more common to my experience than an endless churn of new characters. Whether it's "unlikely" or not depends a lot on the playing style of the players and DM.

Which is for example why WotC was always making a huge mistake trying to be the 'rules company' while outsourcing all the adventures to third parties because 'they didn't make money'. Silly WotC, all the money is in the modules; the system doesn't matter.

It's easy to say that, but if WotC wasn't making money selling modules, then WotC wasn't making money selling modules, and getting others to try and make money on modules for WotC's game probably wasn't a bad idea. An argument against it would be that GMs are rejecting certain games because they didn't have enough adventures, and I think that requires more evidence than given.
 

Celebrim, you make some great points. In particular I think you make an excellent point that the actual system has less to do with player enjoyment as the quality of the DM. Personally speaking, I run a 4E game and overall prefer 4E to 3.5 and Pathfinder, but I would much rather play in a Pathfinder game run by an excellent GM than a 4E run by even an OK DM. In other words, DM/GM matters (much, much) more than system.

That said, there are a few things I don't (entirely) agree with in your post. I do think complexity matters, although it is probably not the number one deterrent for attracting new players. There probably isn't a number one factor but a combination of factors that make getting into D&D a daunting task, which maybe deserves its own thread. But I do think complexity is a factor and I think everyone in this thread that says it is not is perhaps overly identified with their own perspective; in other words, everyone reading this thread is a serious, experience RPGer for whom complexity is not a deterrent. But what about that spouse of a friend who might find their spouse's hundreds of rules book overwhelming? Or, very simply, what about just anyone who might want to play D&D but doesn't want to read through 800+ pages just to get started?

Perhaps an even more important, and related, factor is the confusion with where to begin. Essentials is an attempt to clear this up and may be an improvement, but I think WotC could improve this more with the next edition, or even a revised edition, by having a clearer "product tree" that correlates with the order of publication. In other words, the starter kit should be published first, then the core rulebooks, etc, and it would be made clear that you start with the kit and then, and only then, do you buy the core books.

Secondly, I don't think running a rules lite game means that one needs to invent rules. DM Fiat isn't as much inventing rules as making judgment calls. Guidelines are certainly useful, but it really comes down to a kind of spontaneous, imaginative thinking, and one that is not dependent upon a rulebook. I work in a private high school which has a handbook with rules and policies, but we have to make judgment calls all the time that don't follow the written policies exactly and it drives some people (usually administrators) crazy.

Finally, I will say again that it doesn't have to be either/or, either you have a complex or a simple game. It can be both: A simple core, primary game, with more complex secondary and tertiary layers. This is why I advocate a two or three layered game, with at least Basic and Advanced, but maybe also more wild optional variants like Magic of Incarnum. But the key would be making all variants interchangeable and modular and not require one to move beyond the Basic game if they are happy with it.

I mean, in some ways this is how most people learn the game. You start playing with what you understand and then as you encounter something new, or look a rule up, you add that knowledge or rule to your game (or not). This is how I've learned every edition of D&D, from 4E all the way back to 1E and Basic.

In the end, D&D is a toolbox game - you use what you want to use and every DM is slightly different. Many DMs--especially with 4E and the (unfortunate, imo) homogenizing effect of Character Builder play the RAW, but even then there will be slight variances in judgment, minor house rules, etc. Might as well implement this more clearly and consciously from the beginning!
 

That said, there are a few things I don't (entirely) agree with in your post...But what about that spouse of a friend who might find their spouse's hundreds of rules book overwhelming? Or, very simply, what about just anyone who might want to play D&D but doesn't want to read through 800+ pages just to get started?

I don't think you are really hearing me.

You don't get friends or spouses of friends to start playing by showing the stacks of rule books, and you don't need to read through 800+ pages of rules to get started with a game. Frankly, I prefer to sit down to a new RPG without knowing any of the rules and without touching a rule book. Reading the rules probably will get in the way of my enjoyment of the game.

This is the way I play an RPG:

1) I make a proposition.
2) I interface with the rules under the guidance of the DM.
3) I recieve information back from the DM about the outcome of my proposition.
4) Go to step #1.

The important point about step #2 is that it might sometimes help that I know what I'm supposed to do to interface with the rules, but really it's enough to know that when the GM says, "Make a skill check/saving throw/whatever", I know to throw a particular dice. And even that isn't necessary. All that is really needed is the ability to take instruction from the GM about what dice to throw and modifiers to add. If the game is good, a new player will probably have been playing for a dozen sessions or more before they even bother to get a grasp of the rules, because it won't be the rules that are engaging.

Perhaps an even more important, and related, factor is the confusion with where to begin. Essentials is an attempt to clear this up and may be an improvement, but I think WotC could improve this more with the next edition, or even a revised edition, by having a clearer "product tree" that correlates with the order of publication. In other words, the starter kit should be published first, then the core rulebooks, etc, and it would be made clear that you start with the kit and then, and only then, do you buy the core books.

All irrelevant. You don't start playing an RPG by buying the books. You start playing an RPG with a GM says, "Would you like to play?"

And you don't even make new GMs by selling books. You make new GMs by players going, "You know; I think I want to GM.", or in some cases by, "Well, our GM moved to Indiana/joined the military/got married. Who wants to GM?"

Secondly, I don't think running a rules lite game means that one needs to invent rules. DM Fiat isn't as much inventing rules as making judgment calls.

Same thing, though I've no desire to argue that point again.

I work in a private high school which has a handbook with rules and policies, but we have to make judgment calls all the time that don't follow the written policies exactly and it drives some people (usually administrators) crazy.

See. Exactly my point. You are arguing here against what you just said. You have a rules light system - a handbook that doesn't cover most of the situations that come up except with vague and difficult to apply references - and so when you actually have to use the rules, you find that you spend most of the time making up new rules that there after become 'common law rules' which determine how similar future situations will be resolved. This is one of the several reasons why rules light systems are never highly successful in the RPG market place.

Finally, I will say again that it doesn't have to be either/or, either you have a complex or a simple game. It can be both: A simple core, primary game, with more complex secondary and tertiary layers. This is why I advocate a two or three layered game, with at least Basic and Advanced, but maybe also more wild optional variants like Magic of Incarnum. But the key would be making all variants interchangeable and modular and not require one to move beyond the Basic game if they are happy with it.

In this I agree. And with this, I'll introduce a really contriversial position. Really well designed RPG's aren't elegant. Elegance is a trait to be scrutinized the way you'd look at potentailly lethal microbes under the microscope. Really well designed RPG's have a vaiety of monolithic subsystems that you can ignore or add as you desire to make the game complicated or uncomplicated as you desire and in the areas you care about. Elegance tends to produce tightly coupled RPG systems where every aspect of them effects every other system, so that you can't pull on one part of it without risking the whole thing falling apart. This ends up creating an inflexible system that is complex only where the designer cared to be complex, and ignores or oversimplifies where someone else might care to have complexity, and in short which is good for only one sort of game without massive effort from a GM to make it work.

I mean, in some ways this is how most people learn the game. You start playing with what you understand and then as you encounter something new, or look a rule up, you add that knowledge or rule to your game (or not). This is how I've learned every edition of D&D, from 4E all the way back to 1E and Basic.

Ok, now we are beginning to get on the same wavelength. Yes, this is how people learn the game. In particular, this is how GMs learn the game and some of this sinks by osmosis into the rest of the players at the table. In other words, once you resolve a problem in one way, the players remember that, "In a similar situation in the past you had me roll a D20, add my dex bonus, and I succeeded with a 16. So that is 'the rule'."
 

In my opinion, the complexity of the game has far less to do with attracting new players than the other sources of entertainment, especially as time constraints on having multiple people in "IRL" continue to get in the way of gaming.
 

In this I agree. And with this, I'll introduce a really contriversial position. Really well designed RPG's aren't elegant. Elegance is a trait to be scrutinized the way you'd look at potentailly lethal microbes under the microscope. Really well designed RPG's have a vaiety of monolithic subsystems that you can ignore or add as you desire to make the game complicated or uncomplicated as you desire and in the areas you care about. Elegance tends to produce tightly coupled RPG systems where every aspect of them effects every other system, so that you can't pull on one part of it without risking the whole thing falling apart. This ends up creating an inflexible system that is complex only where the designer cared to be complex, and ignores or oversimplifies where someone else might care to have complexity, and in short which is good for only one sort of game without massive effort from a GM to make it work.

This is seriously the most insightful thing I have read on this board in months. And this board has some very smart people posting very insightful things.

Modularity, not elegance. Brilliant.

(Edit: Just wondering, are you a software developer? Because it strikes me that there's a parallel with principles of good software design here. Well-written software has loosely coupled components with as few interdependencies as possible, so when some newly hired programmer ten years from now has to go in and change something, she can figure out what to do and do it without bringing the entire system to its knees.)
 
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See. Exactly my point. You are arguing here against what you just said. You have a rules light system - a handbook that doesn't cover most of the situations that come up except with vague and difficult to apply references - and so when you actually have to use the rules, you find that you spend most of the time making up new rules that there after become 'common law rules' which determine how similar future situations will be resolved. This is one of the several reasons why rules light systems are never highly successful in the RPG market place.

Rules light sytems as anarchic, incoherent and commercially inert. That's about as supportable as a full stack of 4e hardbacks balanced on top of a rollerskating elephant - performing a tango.
 

Their are several real problems with 4e as far as attracting new players goes, but its nothing to do with complexity. Nor for that matter are any of the problems so great that its going to prevent 4e from attracting new players (because system doesn't matter!). One problem I see with 4e from the standpoint of starting up new tables is that it is a player focused rules set when players per se aren't what a game system should try to be attracting.

You make a good argument, Celebrim, but your central thesis seems quite flawed. D&D 3e is notable for how much preparation time was required, especially at the higher levels. Almost all of the complaints I've seen about 4E have been about the player side - the DM side has been more of "Oh, this is so much easier to run!"

The complaints from the player side have been of two nature: this is too simple (from the magic-users) and this is too complex (from the fighters). The latter point is addressed by Essentials. Honestly, I don't know if the system would be improved by making wizards and cleric more complex than they currently are. Some twiddling with rituals, certainly. The changes to wizard encounter powers will be very much welcomed.

However, I can certainly say from personal experience that there are players who are put off by the basic level of complexity of 4E characters. I'm going to be very interested to see how they react to Essentials - I should know in the sort-of-near future when (if?) Essentials makes it to Australia.

And you don't even make new GMs by selling books.

This is wrong. It's so mind-staggeringly wrong, that I can't quite comprehend how wrong it is. Yes, Virginia, there are DMs who have begun their career by buying the books and running games from them. Not all of them, certainly, but a fair portion.
 

This is wrong. It's so mind-staggeringly wrong, that I can't quite comprehend how wrong it is. Yes, Virginia, there are DMs who have begun their career by buying the books and running games from them. Not all of them, certainly, but a fair portion.

Present.

As to the idea of a game made of independent systems, this sounds like a great idea in theory, and as was mentioned is good for a computer program, but it seems that in practice for a TTRPG, it wouldn't be as desireable (unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning). The enemies of the characters have to be balanced in regards to the character; if the two systems disregard each other, one side will probably turn out much too powerful (and it would probably be the monsters). If each class is too different, one will reign supreme over all the others.

If I'm wrong and you mean something along the lines of "characters have one mechanic for attacking, and monsters have another, but they're still balanced against each other," then this is still iffy. Having unifying mechanics makes the game easier to grasp, and while some mechanics can differ (monsters have recharge powers, PCs don't), making them to independent just sows confusion.

Elegance isn't as desireable in a CRPG, because no players play the enemies, and they don't need to do all the die rolls and calculations, so if things are different, as long as they're balanced, nobody will really notice. It's much more noticeable in a TTRPG, so elegance makes it easier as well as not too challenging or easy.
 

There are two ways into this hobby:

(1) Joining an existing group.

(2) Buying the game and forming an entirely new group.

IME, the complexity of the ruleset is almost irrelevant when it comes to the first group. Any half competent GM should be able to serve as an interface between players and rules: "Tell me what you want to do and I'll tell you how to do it." The learning curve can be whatever the player can handle (or wants to handle).

OTOH, making the game completely rely on recruitment and tutoring is not, IMO, necessary. And designing your game to work like that seems ultimately self-defeating.

Speaking as someone who got into the game by buying the books and starting an entirely new group, I think it's important for the game to be accessible to people like me.

And here's another thing: I've personally introduced more than two dozen people to roleplaying games. A lot of them have stuck around. If I hadn't been able to start playing, some or all of those people may have never gotten tutored.

I'm increasingly convinced that the D&D / AD&D pairing was inspired: A simple, complete ruleset accessible in an affordable package. And if you like the game and want more complexity, we have the option for that right over here. And it's even mostly compatible. (I think 100% compatibility would be even more desirable.)

With that being said, I think the idea most experienced players have a "rules-lite" or "simple" system is the wrong concept of "simple" that's needed in an introductory game.

(1) You need a system for quick, easy character creation. You want to give the new player the ability to have control over what type of character they want to play, without bogging them down in a mire of options that are essentially meaningless to them.

(Pregens are not a solution. Creating a character is part of the fun. Yes, this is a fine line to walk.)

(2) You want to strip down the rules so that they don't have a lot of daunting, fiddly bits and endless nuances for new players to get lost in. OTOH, the rules should be comprehensive: The new DM should have a clear answer to the question, "When the players say X, what should I do?"

(Yes, this is a balancing act, too.)

BECMI D&D basically accomplished this as far as dungeon-based adventures are concerned.
 

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