Wicht
Hero
That was not my experience.
Why the Modern D&D variants will not attract new players
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That was not my experience.
Hussar
Legend
This chestnut gets brought out time and time again. Why is that? Why is this meme that, at some mythical time in the past, we were all deeply involved role players, who scoffed at combat and each session was a performance equaled only by the greatest actors of the time only to be subverted by new games which turned us all into mindless combat wombats who do nothing but throw dice at imaginary monsters?
Does people not actually go back and READ those old materials? Or read through the "Let's Read Dragon Magazine" thread?
Hack and slash have been part and parcel for D&D since the very first days. Hell, Dragonlance is actually panned for trying to bring plot into the game! It took nearly twenty years from the days of Chainmail until 2e D&D to actually get REWARDS for role playing into the game.
The more things change...
nedjer
Adventurer
This chestnut gets brought out time and time again. Why is that? Why is this meme that, at some mythical time in the past, we were all deeply involved role players, who scoffed at combat and each session was a performance equaled only by the greatest actors of the time only to be subverted by new games which turned us all into mindless combat wombats who do nothing but throw dice at imaginary monsters?
Does people not actually go back and READ those old materials? Or read through the "Let's Read Dragon Magazine" thread?
Hack and slash have been part and parcel for D&D since the very first days. Hell, Dragonlance is actually panned for trying to bring plot into the game! It took nearly twenty years from the days of Chainmail until 2e D&D to actually get REWARDS for role playing into the game.
The more things change...
Let's roast that chestnut . . .
Meme #1
That roleplaying is about Oscar winning handwringing
Is roleplaying getting deep in character by affecting a characterisation, or is it participating in the life and deeds of a character? I.e. wearing a hood and talking with a lisp v's planning and conducting an assassination attempt.
Meme #2
That it's hack and slay v's roleplaying
Combat is part of roleplaying, along with exploration, investigation and imagination. Why does any one necessarily preclude or devalue the others?
(With the possible exception of gaming while wearing a Gimli costume and talking in a fake Scottish accent)
I think I have read that dungeon magazine too. Hack and Slash vs. Roleplaying. When I think of hack and slash, it is more of let's see what we can throw against the characters and see what happens. If I recall they had a funny cartoon about one of the players running a game, because the DM and a few other of the player were going to a convention, not sure on that one. And the player, DMing just ran all the monsters out of the Monsterous Manual, starting from A-Z. Very boring I would think.
Not to say that 3rd edition is like this, but I do know that when characters reach around 12 level or so, that you would have to throw overwhelming odds just so the characters would be more challenged. When it involved combat. 2nd edition had it's flaws like that, but not to the extent 3rd edition had. Then start adding prestige classes, and those orcs no longer were a threat to players.
As a DM, it can be quite frustrating when your characters have a way of walking through a game that you spent hours on trying to be some sort of challenge.
As for the bread and butter of FRPGs it was the roleplaying element. You created a character based on a story that you gave that character. Anyone can play a ranger, but not anyone could play a ranger that told dirty limmericks in taverns, or the bard who sang comical parodies of the deeds that the player characters had done. Not to mention a fighter who was wimpy but was very brave and strong underneath, Not to mention the bad mouthed, hot tempered dwarf priest who gave the others strength when they so desperately needed it.
That was what kept us playing. Never knew what was going to happen next. It was very common for my players to just sit and come up with this stuff, and not do anything in a game. I remember sessions where the time was spent in a tavern talking about the last adventure and all the things, the dirty rhymes, the parodies, the hot tempered foul mouth of the dwarf, and the weakness of the fighter would have us all laughing for hours. Somehow it just all added up together into a very humorous spectacle of the wimpy kid, and the dwarf arguing, whilst the dirty limmericks issue forth, not to mention a comical parody of the last adventure comming out. We would rolling. So as far as wearing gimili, any day of the week. Not to mention it is banana colored. Not this gamer!!!!
No, I am not talking of actors. Or people being great actors. Just those few times, when the great idea is more rewarding than the PC's vs the world. Where every game is dire combat or die. The save the world conundrum. No, I am talking about Tony, who went on vacation during the summer, and wrote some wacky tune to one of the adventures we played, but turned out to be the corniest thing we ever heard, or Sara who played the grumpy bad mouthed, hot tempered dwarf, ever heard a girl try to sound like a dwarf, not to mention have a bad mouth, then William telling dirty jokes that his dad had told some people to fill the time and make everyone laugh, and lastly Jonathon who was the bigger than any two of us put together, play the wimpy fighter. Imagine what we picked on him about.
In the end, I don't think it matters what version of any game you play, or how many different versions you played. I think people are going to easily find themselves settled into the version they had the most fun with and just not want to give up the memories that they share. My group while we don't play very often, our lives have gone on to other things, but everyone of us keeps in contact with each other, and when we do get together our discussions usually lead to those late nights, of throwing dice and fighting monsters and saving the kingdom from certain doom. It is a lot of "Do you remember whens" and " Wasn't such and such doing such and such." Not to mention the being picked on for this foolishness or that. That is what ir boils to around the table, whether square or round, or partially there of.
Not to say that 3rd edition is like this, but I do know that when characters reach around 12 level or so, that you would have to throw overwhelming odds just so the characters would be more challenged. When it involved combat. 2nd edition had it's flaws like that, but not to the extent 3rd edition had. Then start adding prestige classes, and those orcs no longer were a threat to players.
As a DM, it can be quite frustrating when your characters have a way of walking through a game that you spent hours on trying to be some sort of challenge.
As for the bread and butter of FRPGs it was the roleplaying element. You created a character based on a story that you gave that character. Anyone can play a ranger, but not anyone could play a ranger that told dirty limmericks in taverns, or the bard who sang comical parodies of the deeds that the player characters had done. Not to mention a fighter who was wimpy but was very brave and strong underneath, Not to mention the bad mouthed, hot tempered dwarf priest who gave the others strength when they so desperately needed it.
That was what kept us playing. Never knew what was going to happen next. It was very common for my players to just sit and come up with this stuff, and not do anything in a game. I remember sessions where the time was spent in a tavern talking about the last adventure and all the things, the dirty rhymes, the parodies, the hot tempered foul mouth of the dwarf, and the weakness of the fighter would have us all laughing for hours. Somehow it just all added up together into a very humorous spectacle of the wimpy kid, and the dwarf arguing, whilst the dirty limmericks issue forth, not to mention a comical parody of the last adventure comming out. We would rolling. So as far as wearing gimili, any day of the week. Not to mention it is banana colored. Not this gamer!!!!
No, I am not talking of actors. Or people being great actors. Just those few times, when the great idea is more rewarding than the PC's vs the world. Where every game is dire combat or die. The save the world conundrum. No, I am talking about Tony, who went on vacation during the summer, and wrote some wacky tune to one of the adventures we played, but turned out to be the corniest thing we ever heard, or Sara who played the grumpy bad mouthed, hot tempered dwarf, ever heard a girl try to sound like a dwarf, not to mention have a bad mouth, then William telling dirty jokes that his dad had told some people to fill the time and make everyone laugh, and lastly Jonathon who was the bigger than any two of us put together, play the wimpy fighter. Imagine what we picked on him about.
In the end, I don't think it matters what version of any game you play, or how many different versions you played. I think people are going to easily find themselves settled into the version they had the most fun with and just not want to give up the memories that they share. My group while we don't play very often, our lives have gone on to other things, but everyone of us keeps in contact with each other, and when we do get together our discussions usually lead to those late nights, of throwing dice and fighting monsters and saving the kingdom from certain doom. It is a lot of "Do you remember whens" and " Wasn't such and such doing such and such." Not to mention the being picked on for this foolishness or that. That is what ir boils to around the table, whether square or round, or partially there of.
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Wicht
Hero
I'm afraid that this also has not been my experience. If anything, higher level combat is always more deadly, filled with unexpected twists.
Isn't this pretty tautological?
Every so often I'll see people saying stuff like this, and I'm just not following the logic. At higher levels you have to use encounters that challenge the PCs in order to challenge them? Okay. Yeah. That's true. What's your point?
And, how, exactly is that supposed to be incompatible with swapping stories about it back at the local tavern?
Raven Crowking
First Post
I am no fan of 4e, and I am no longer playing 3e. I do not play Pathfinder.
(I do, however, use 4e, 3e, and Pathfinder modules.)
Being aware that these games have all attracted new players, though, I find that any discussion of why they will not do so founders upon the hard rocks of my experience. Likewise any discussion of how they are so good they will remove the need for any other games.
They all have weaknesses and strengths. They all will appeal to some people more than others. They all will appeal to some people greatly, and to others not at all.
The same thing is true for all earlier editions, all retroclones, all para-editions, and all game rulesets that don't fall under any of those categories.
And, because it is the nature of the beast, there will be a 5e. And a 6e. Market forces -- and the law of diminishing returns -- demand that it should be so.
RC
(I do, however, use 4e, 3e, and Pathfinder modules.)
Being aware that these games have all attracted new players, though, I find that any discussion of why they will not do so founders upon the hard rocks of my experience. Likewise any discussion of how they are so good they will remove the need for any other games.
They all have weaknesses and strengths. They all will appeal to some people more than others. They all will appeal to some people greatly, and to others not at all.
The same thing is true for all earlier editions, all retroclones, all para-editions, and all game rulesets that don't fall under any of those categories.
And, because it is the nature of the beast, there will be a 5e. And a 6e. Market forces -- and the law of diminishing returns -- demand that it should be so.
RC
Celebrim
Legend
It's pretty easy to show why this is true using the rules.
1) Base saving throw bonuses generally increase at the rate of +1 per 3 levels.
2) DC of saving throws generally increase at the rate of about +1 per 2 levels.
3) The enhancement of saving throws bonuses and DC bonuses from magic, stat upgrades, and feats about even out.
4) So, generally you are more likely to fail a saving throw the higher you are in level. Or more specifically, your 'poor' saves get worse and your 'good' saves only about keep up with the challenges you face.
5) The consequences of failing a saving throw increase as you increase in level.
This in my opinion was one of the biggest problems with 3rd edition. In 1st edition, you were pretty much gauranteed to have better saves as you increased in level (and face monsters with better and better saves as well). The impact of this problem wasn't limited to a greater expectation of random death at high level. It also was largely responsible for the necessity of maintaining a large array of defensive buffs on all members of the party at all times. And it was the effectiveness of 'save or suck' that caused players and NPCs to sling around alot of those debuffing spells that inflicted statuses, ability damage, level drain, different named bonuses/penalties, and the like on each other. It was the maintenance and application of large numbers of buffs and debuffs each modifying things in a large number of ways which helped to make high level 3rd edition combat a potential nightmare to run.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Which, as a perhaps-unintended side effect, also served as a means of keeping casters' power levels from getting too out of hand at high level...
Lanefan
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