D&D 3E/3.5 Why be a 3.5 fighter?

[Nifft]

Actually, he could withdraw. After 20 rounds, it will begin to tire. When it is finally too tired to run, it will have to wait at least 10 rounds before it can run again, during which time it can move no more than 20 feet per round, significantly worsening its tactical position.

Actually, no.

Withdraw

Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.

The hydra has 10 ft. reach. If the Fighter starts his turn adjacent to the hydra, it gets all its attacks of opportunity on him when he tries to leave his second square, which is still within its reach.

I repeat: if the hydra ends its movement adjacent to the Fighter, he's screwed. Period.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dandu]

There's also Greater Mirror Image, which my Wizard was never without the ability to cast

Let's be fair and remember that a Dragon gets Blindsense, which means Mirror Images won't do much good.

Project Image, on the other hand, might provide a decoy since by the time the dragon is close to your projected image and realizes it's a fake, you're somewhere else.

 

[Nifft]

So pick an opponent it makes sense to melee. That's like sending a wizard up against a golem, a dragon with awakened spell resistance, and something that has globe of invulnerability, then observing that all the wizard does is cast summoning spells.

How about a lich? Or a medusa assassin?

Clerics, Druids and Wizards have plenty of options vs. those targets. Okay, so Reflex-targeting evocations like fireball are off the table -- that only leaves 80% of the spell list useful.

Summoning, conjurations, buffs on summons and self and party, illusions, environment-changing effects (like disintegrate on a bridge, or wall of stone to make a bridge), and of course the teleport family of spells for when the caster feels he is unprepared and would like to continue the fight later, when conditions favor him more heavily.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Wyvernhand]

Blindsense only helps locate your square. All Mirrior Images share your square. That means that the dragon has 2 options vs Greater Mirror Image. Either take his chances vs the images, or close his eyes and take his chances with the 50% miss chance.

Now, if the dragon had BlindSIGHT, then Greater Mirror Image would be irrelevant. They don't though.

 

[pawsplay]

Hydra in an close quarters environment.

My preferred answer would definitely be to manipulate the environment so that doesn't happen, but let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that you do want to fight the hydra in, say, a 60 foot by 60 foot room. In that case, what you want to do is to throw some oil flasks on the ground, provoking Balance checks if it runs or charges. Then you run in circles with it, using archery. If, at any point, it charges, everyone charges and sunders one of its heads. In a smaller room situation, you would probably have two archers and two sunderers.

In a less ideal situation, here's how four fighters can take one down in hand-to-hand combat. First, during the first round, everyone who beats the hydra's initiative charges and sunders a head. If no one does, one fighter uses Total Defense and moves adjacent, provoking an AoO. Then the next fighter runs up behind him, benefitting from cover, and pops up adjacent to the hydra, making a Sunder attempt. Then the remaining fighters follow suit. Round two, the first two wounded take Total Defense and back out, purposefully provoking AoOs. The remaing two go nuts with the severing.

In a full party, you get the casters to summon some monsters or something, and they can provoke the AoOs and provide cover. Alternatively, the fighter could tank, purposefully drawing AoOs, with the cleric using him as cover and healing, while a rogue or monk tumbles in and severs heads.

Of course, all that presumes you want to melee the hydra, which you don't. I've seen it done, and it's not pretty. I think it would be much better to set things up with glitterdust, grease, or summoned monsters, then have the fighter act as an archer, or run up and do some sundering once the AoOs are neutralized.

 

[Dandu]

My preferred answer would definitely be to manipulate the environment so that doesn't happen, but let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that you do want to fight the hydra in, say, a 60 foot by 60 foot room.

Look, not trying to be difficult, but it's not always about what you want. You don't always get to choose the field of battle. lots of times in dungeoncrawls, you will end up engaging enemies in small rooms and you have to address that possibility.

 

[Nifft]

In a less ideal situation, here's how four fighters can take one down in hand-to-hand combat. First, during the first round, everyone who beats the hydra's initiative charges and sunders a head. If no one does, one fighter uses Total Defense and moves adjacent, provoking an AoO. Then the next fighter runs up behind him, benefitting from cover, and pops up adjacent to the hydra, making a Sunder attempt. Then the remaining fighters follow suit. Round two, the first two wounded take Total Defense and back out, purposefully provoking AoOs. The remaing two go nuts with the severing.
(...)
Of course, all that presumes you want to melee the hydra, which you don't.

It presumes you have no other options than melee, because the hydra isn't going to let you use archery for more than one round, and you have no way to stop it from walking right up to you and eating your face.

 

[Dandu]

In that case, what you want to do is to throw some oil flasks on the ground, provoking Balance checks if it runs or charges.

Oil A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern. You can use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist’s fire, except that it takes a full round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.
You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.

Where do you see oil as forcing Balance checks?

Then you run in circles with it, using archery.

Why does your powerful, versatile combatant fixate on archery? It's not a bad tactic, but you're not being versatile if you keep doing this.

If, at any point, it charges, everyone charges and sunders one of its heads.

Even the ones with their bows?

In a smaller room situation, you would probably have two archers and two sunderers.

Ah, two in front and two in back. Can I get a damage output estimate?

In a less ideal situation, here's how four fighters can take one down in hand-to-hand combat. First, during the first round, everyone who beats the hydra's initiative charges and sunders a head.

You've got a good chance of beating the initiative, with +6 vs +1.
The Hydra is a Huge creature, and gains +8 on its attack roll for a total of +24. Fighter, using a one handed weapon, attacks at +21. You get a +4 bonus if you ditch the shield, though, but that decreases your AC.
The first guy to charge in and attack provokes 2 AoOs, though. 22 attacks at AB +16 and an average of 11.5 damage per hit vs AC 22 (assuming he's using a shield) results in 189.75 damage on average, or in other words, one dead fighter.

If no one does, one fighter uses Total Defense and moves adjacent, provoking an AoO.

11 attacks, one from each head. At AB +16 and 11.6 damage each vs AC 26, they do 63.25 damage

Then the next fighter runs up behind him, benefitting from cover, and pops up adjacent to the hydra, making a Sunder attempt.

Hold on. The rules for cover granted from allies states that
"Soft Cover Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check."
You don't get cover and provoke AoOs from your movement.

Round two

On the Hydra's turn it viciously attacks whoever just sundered it with 10 attacks. It's already attacked him 11 times, so that's 22 attacks on one fighters so far. 21 attacks for 11.5 each at +16 AB vs AC 22 is... an average of 178.25 damage dealt to that fighter.

the first two wounded take Total Defense and back out, purposefully provoking AoOs. The remaing two go nuts with the severing.

It'll deal about damage to each fighter moving out before more sundering takes place. Alternatively, the it could attack the fighters who are trying to sunder its heads since your fighter build doesn't have Improved Sunder and provokes AoOs when trying.

In a full party, you get the casters to summon some monsters or something, and they can provoke the AoOs and provide cover.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw[/ame]

Alternatively, the fighter could tank, purposefully drawing AoOs, with the cleric using him as cover and healing, while a rogue or monk tumbles in and severs heads.

Rogues and Monks do not seem like the type to be able to Sunder, what with little incentive to take the Power Attack feat chain.

Also, I'm not sure the cleric could heal you and keep up with the damage being inflicted. Seems like it would be a huge drain on resources.

Of course, all that presumes you want to melee the hydra, which you don't. I've seen it done, and it's not pretty.

Agreed, which is why I'm using it to test your powerful, versatile fighter's ability at combat since you've been avoiding it.

I think it would be much better to set things up with glitterdust, grease, or summoned monsters, then have the fighter act as an archer, or run up and do some sundering once the AoOs are neutralized.

Again with the archery.

 

[Nifft]

Where do you see oil as forcing Balance checks?

Perhaps he's thinking of the 1st level grease spell.

 

[pawsplay]

Firstly,

• Movement only provokes one AoO.
• Uneven flagstones or hewn store are Balance DC 10 + slipperiness if you run or charge.
• The grease spell forces a Reflexes save, not a Balance check, unless you try to move.
• "When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks."

I forgot that Combat Reflexes allows AoOs when flat-footed for any reason, so the scenario would be the less favorable one. My bad. The first two fighters in will each take an AoO while benefitting from +4 AC from Total Defense.

Yes, even the ones with their bows. One-handed, the fighter's bastard sword will automatically do enough damage to sever a head.

I haven't seen the episode of Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit where the Angel Summoner gets killed in one round by a charging hydra. That can happen to a less tough character in this situation.

Healing the fighter one time each round uses likely less spells than a wizard would need to successfully incapacitate the hydra, especially since some very basic assistance from the wizard would render the fighter virtually unhittable.

Dandu, I have already told you before that I consider picking at details to be wasteful discussion. I am not going to respond to any more elaborate tactical scenarios WRT the hydra. It really has little to do with how the fighter is cool, only how single class parties have to exercise more than usual caution when fighting especially irritating opponents under extraordinarily unfavorable circumstances. How a fighter fares against a hydra "in close quarters" has about as much relevance as how a wizard fares against a golem in an anti-magic zone. Plus, you're posting all these ridiculous big beater fights right after asking to see a powerful and versatile combatant; that's some serious goal post moving.

The problem with arguing with people who disparage fighters is that since they don't like or play them, they tend to have very little experience playing them in-game. I don't know that necessarily applies to everyone who has decided to jump into this "why to play a fighter" thread and tried to explain why not to play one, but I get the sense that many of these scenarios have not been considered realistically.

Like the lich. It is very likely that in a real fight, the fighter runs up to the lich, the wizard counterspells the contingency or anything else the lich tries to do, and the fighter proceeds to whale on the lich. It's not Angel Summoner and the BMX bandit so much as Colossus + Wolverine executing a fastball special.

In a real scenario, when you've got a hydra in a small space, black dragon in open ground, etc., the result is usually a stalemate. There is no really good reason to melee the hydra in a "fair fight;" either you shoot it to death, burn it to death, or you... leave and come back with the means to shoot and/or burn it to death.