Enough is enough: Let's do something about Driizzt do'Urden

[fireinthedust]

While I can honestly say I don't remember ever having barred a PC due to non-campaign reasons, sometimes I've wanted to: its not about the concept, but the way it gets played.

The closest I ever came was with a good buddy of mine. I've been gaming with him since 1984 or so, and 85% of his PCs are Wizards. Their spell lists- up until 4Ed- have been virtually interchangeable. He plays them virtually identically.

At one point, I just got fed up with this, and almost forced him to play something else, but I decided against it for 2 reasons:

1) There is something to be said for someone who can play a role in a completely expected way- he's reliable; he won't make many mistakes. He's easy to plot for as a DM.

2) Never once has anyone in our groups complained that they couldn't play a Wizard because he was. IOW, nobody who has wanted to play a Wizard has ever felt they couldn't because he was.

I suspect, though, with some of these stereotypes, they're not getting barred for being boring, but for someone creating disharmony within the group because of them.

In the same group as the above player, we have another one who always plays some kind of ranger/sniper variant. We always let him because everything else he tries ends in disaster: in one campaign, his attempts at playing a "Face" type PC nearly got that PC killed on multiple occasions, which often led to the party getting shot at as well.

Were he to ask to repeat that experiment, I'm sure the vote would be 9-1 against.

I have a player just like that, except *any* character he plays ends in disaster. That's why I give him access to the Deck of Many Things, and haven't been disappointed once.

 

[Oryan77]

I guess I'm saying, I don't know what you mean by "roleplay any other ranger character".

I mean, if Billy made a good Human Ranger with a bow, and in the next campaign he made a good Elf Ranger with a spear, and then the next time he makes a good Drow Ranger with swords, I don't think any other players are going to notice a distinct difference in the way the player roleplays any of these characters. Maybe he'll come up with some kind of personality quirk or something, but from my experience playing with people, they don't do a whole lot to distinguish their characters from one another. I'm not saying players aren't good at distinguishing characters via roleplaying, but my observations of the type of player that would make a "clone" character is not the type of player that is very creative when it comes to roleplaying. They may even usually be more of the hack-n-slash type.

So, nobody is going to see this players roleplaying and think, "This PC is caring, helpful, brave, etc etc just like Drizzt is. He's portraying him exactly like Drizzt." No, I'm saying that people don't accuse a PC of being a Drizzt clone unless he is simply a good aligned Drow Ranger with 2 swords. And I don't believe the good alignment sums up all of Drizzt's traits. Like I said, I can totally make a good aligned Drow 2 weapon fighter and roleplay him nothing like Drizzt. Yet I'd be accused of making a Drizzt clone & people would toss around the term "emo".

My whole point (which has probably been lost by now) is that it doesn't matter what kind of character build you make for a PC. Everyone rips off some kind of well established character; which is why I wrote up 10 played out character types to use as examples. But people only seem to ever be critical about the PC when it's a good Drow with 2 weapons. Drizzt always gets a bad wrap.

Drizzt is hardly even a ranger.

He does many Ranger-like things in his books. He's constantly tracking, moving silently, hiding. He has an animal companion. He spent years living on his own in both the Underdark and on the surface. I'm not sure why you wouldn't think he's a ranger.

Can you take away the good-aligned? That's part of the RP.

Like I said, the alignment doesn't define a players roleplaying. My womanizing gambling drunken good aligned Drow example is nothing like Drizzt. But because he's good & Drow he's a clone? I'll say it again, people don't care about the roleplaying. They'll call a PC a clone regardless of how you intend to roleplay the character.

It comes off like you guys are so bitter about seeing these things before that you "just wont allow it". Because *you* have seen it before, and *you* are tired of it, these players shouldn't be able to play it. Thats actually horrible in my opinion, no offense. You literally limit character choices for someone else because *you* are bored with the concept? That just isn't any kind of logic that I follow.

I hope my first post with the 10 examples isn't being taken the wrong way. I wrote that purely to point out how people are being hypocritical when they complain about a Drizzt clone when there are many other "played out" character types that people play more often than a good Drow. For me, I honestly don't care what type of a PC someone plays as long as it isn't annoying.

I just think it's an old tired complaint when I hear someone whining about Drizzt. I really don't understand why people even care. All I get from that complaint is that the person is trying to feel superior to others and let us know that you're so insanely creative that you know why Drizzt is lame & that only a dimwit would like the character. It comes off as being as obnoxious as the guy that doesn't own a TV and has to remind me every freaking day that he doesn't know anything about the shows we're talking about cause he 'doesn't own a TV' (yeah I get it, you don't watch TV so you're automatically an intellectual & smarter than the rest of us).

is just kind of being a d**k in my opinion. To each their own game though.

I agree.

I didn't mean to argue. More debate. Also, keep in mind you argued with the OP, that Drizzt clones aren't bad. As someone who loves cliche characters, and has made *awful* Drizzt clones... and I just wanted to defend the particular cliches.

See, I'm on your side. Which is why I didn't need to argue about my 10 examples. I wasn't making those examples to show that they are bad (although I expressed my dislike for a couple). I just tried to point out how we all make cliche characters but it's always the "Drizzt clone" that gets all the slack. So I didn't need to hear why my examples aren't cliche from someone that is doing nothing but taking offense to the build as if I'm trashing it. It just seemed like people wanted to tell me I'm wrong 10 times for the sake of telling some they are wrong.

Frankly: you forgot the character whose entire family was killed by X, then decided to go fight Gotham mobsters, err, monsters(!)

You started this sentence off by saying Frank(ly) and then mentioned the entire family being killed by mobsters. Were you subconsciously thinking about Frank Castle (aka the Punisher)?

Hey, don't say that. There are some great non-adult authors

See, that's what I'm taking offense to. I was actually just being sarcastic about me being less intelligent. I can't stand to hear people criticize any sort of fantasy novel as if it's a bad thing that I read it as an adult. It's not like Salvatore is writing Nancy Drew books. Just because the authors you guys like to read are thought of as more intellectual writers doesn't mean you're in any way more adult or more sophisticated for reading them.

It really comes off as being pompous when I hear people belittle a Salvatore book as if it's a childrens book & nothing more. I'm in no way a stupid person. But most of the books you guys are proud of reading are completely boring to me. I can't stand reading that kind of stuff. The over use of a big vocabulary & insanely long descriptions of mundane crap is unnecessary to me when I'm reading a fantasy story. I don't need to stroke my ego and disregard a good story by reading something written by a more obscure or less popular author. I'm not that full of myself.

And BTW, I'm 33 years old and just finishing up the last few chapters of the Thousand Orcs book by Salvatore. My gaming friend is going to loan me the next couple books once I finish with this. If me reading these kind of books puts me on the same level as a teenage intelligence, then what's that say about you guys playing D&D? After all, it's a game marketed to teenagers. See? In the big scheme of things, dogging on something like a Salvatore book is pretty pointless. It's an entertaining read, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I mean, if Billy made a good Human Ranger with a bow, and in the next campaign he made a good Elf Ranger with a spear, and then the next time he makes a good Drow Ranger with swords, I don't think any other players are going to notice a distinct difference in the way the player roleplays any of these characters. Maybe he'll come up with some kind of personality quirk or something, but from my experience playing with people, they don't do a whole lot to distinguish their characters from one another. I'm not saying players aren't good at distinguishing characters via roleplaying, but my observations of the type of player that would make a "clone" character is not the type of player that is very creative when it comes to roleplaying. They may even usually be more of the hack-n-slash type.

I don't think this has anything to do with Drizzt.

Or maybe we're arguing about it the wrong way. Do you see an elf ranger as a Legolas-clone? I sure don't. That's bland. Elf + ranger = good mechanical build.

Drow + ranger + dual-wielding scimitars = non-optimal build. If you've got a player who apparently isn't interested in RPing, why do they build such a character? And toss in a good alignment... it really starts to look less like a potentially cool build, and more like Drizzt clone territory.

So, nobody is going to see this players roleplaying and think, "This PC is caring, helpful, brave, etc etc just like Drizzt is. He's portraying him exactly like Drizzt." No, I'm saying that people don't accuse a PC of being a Drizzt clone unless he is simply a good aligned Drow Ranger with 2 swords.

Ohhhkay then. See above about how a Drizzt-clone is suboptimal (at least in 3.x; I'm pretty sure it worked pretty well in both 2e and 4e).

And I don't believe the good alignment sums up all of Drizzt's traits.

I never said it did. The key words were part of.

Like I said, I can totally make a good aligned Drow 2 weapon fighter and roleplay him nothing like Drizzt. Yet I'd be accused of making a Drizzt clone & people would toss around the term "emo".

They might until they get to know this character. But good-aligned drow really do draw a lot of flack. I'd have to ask why? (Especially in 3.x. Lose 1 or 2 ECL and get what in return? SR! That's it! And you could RP'd that character without being a drow.)

But people only seem to ever be critical about the PC when it's a good Drow with 2 weapons. Drizzt always gets a bad wrap.

Maybe because you used not-great examples (as you said, you only spent a few minutes on them). None of them screamed "clone" like a dual-wielding good-aligned ranger.

He does many Ranger-like things in his books. He's constantly tracking, moving silently, hiding. He has an animal companion. He spent years living on his own in both the Underdark and on the surface. I'm not sure why you wouldn't think he's a ranger.

He seems more like a fighter with some added skills to me. He doesn't do a heck of a lot of tracking; I can't recall the last time I read about him hunting. He does do stealth though. He doesn't have an animal companion, not exactly. (It's intelligent, even though it can't talk. It's a magic artifact with a personality.) He spends a lot of time leading troops, to the point where I wonder if he should have been a warlord. (But no, warlord Dex-fighters just don't seem to work. *Sniff*)

Like I said, the alignment doesn't define a players roleplaying.

Part of, and it's a big deal when you have an entire race of (usually) evil creatures, and how said drow managed to survive being good-aligned in that society would be expected to come up in their backstory somewhere.

My womanizing gambling drunken good aligned Drow example is nothing like Drizzt. But because he's good & Drow he's a clone?

How does he justify surviving long enough to escape as a good-aligned drow? Is that in his backstory? Was he raised in some unusual good-aligned drow community? (That's why I hate Eilistraee; I'm glad she's gone.)

I'll say it again, people don't care about the roleplaying. They'll call a PC a clone regardless of how you intend to roleplay the character.

It's a lot easier to describe a character as a good-aligned dual-wielding drow fighter or ranger than to go into lots of detail about how you're RPing said character.

I hope my first post with the 10 examples isn't being taken the wrong way. I wrote that purely to point out how people are being hypocritical when they complain about a Drizzt clone when there are many other "played out" character types that people play more often than a good Drow.

Those other character types just didn't have an RP hook. (Except maybe jerk mages like Raistlin, but I've never seen that done. At least, none except the Chaotic Stupid sorcerer variety.)

What are Drizzt's RP hooks? Quite a lot, but a few include being a defector from an evil culture who had to run away to an unfamiliar surface due to his good alignment... (which incidentally would also apply to a lawful good drow paladin, or a chaotic good drow wizard, or...). Even if the player is only interested in hack-and-slash, that's going to come up. (And especially in 3.x, they're basically giving up 1-2 levels for what? The SR? I don't think I've ever seen someone play a drow just for the SR. Gotta be some other reason... I wonder if drow are just so cool and non-evil campaigns so very common that good-aligned drow are the only way said characters can actually appear in most campaigns.)

What are Legolas' hooks? A prince of some kind? I don't think I've seen legions of elven royals who do something. Good-aligned? Yeah, him and plenty of other elves. It's not like Legolas had to run away from his family for failing to be evil. It's actually pretty hard to copy Legolas unless you're looking solely at his build, which people who have never even heard of Lord of the Rings would have used anyway because mechanically it's a good option.

Can you say such a character might be vanilla and bland? Sure. Can you say he's copying Legolas? The player might not even know who Legolas is.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

All I know is...

I'll never be your Drizzt do'Urden
My swords are broad and built for hurting
All I want is for you to make love to me
I'll never be your Drizzt do'Urden
I've walked for miles my feet are hurting
All I want is you to make love to me

Am I hard enough
Am I rough enough
Am I rich enough
I'm not too blind to see

I'll never be your Drizzt do'Urden
So let's go home and draw the curtains
Some bard on the patio
Come on baby make sweet love to me

Am I hard enough
Am I rough enough
Am I rich enough
I'm not too blind to see

Oh little sister
Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty, girl
You're a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty girl
Pretty, pretty
Such a pretty, pretty, pretty girl
Come on baby please, please, please

I'll tell ya
You can put me out
On the street
Put me out
With no shoes on my feet
But, put me out, put me out
Put me out of misery

Yeah, all your sickness
I can suck it up
Throw it all at me
I can shrug it off
There's one thing baby
That I don't understand
You keep on telling me
I ain't your kind of man

Ain't I rough enough, ooh baby
Ain't I tough enough
Ain't I rich enough, in love enough
Ooh! Ooh! Please

I'll never be your Drizzt do'Urden
I'll never be your Drizzt do'Urden
Never, never, never, never, never, never, never be

I'll never be your Drizzt do'Urden
My blades are sharp, my foes are hurting
All I want is you to make love to me,
Yeah

You don't need no Drizzt do'Urden
don't need no fussing
don't need no nursing
Never, never, never, never, never, never, never be

 

[Oryan77]

Drow + ranger + dual-wielding scimitars = non-optimal build. If you've got a player who apparently isn't interested in RPing, why do they build such a character? And toss in a good alignment... it really starts to look less like a potentially cool build, and more like Drizzt clone territory.

So now we're talking about an optimal or not build as being the reasons to call it a Drizzt clone?
Yer all over the place man. First you say it's because of how they roleplay the PC. Then you say it's cause he's good aligned. Now yer saying that if the player isn't building an optimal build then he's obviously just trying to play a Drizzt clone? Not everyone cares if they are building an optimal build or not. Also, there is such a thing as someone being inspired by a character and using that as a sort of template for their own character. It doesn't mean they are trying to make a clone.

Anyway, I've tried to explain my point and I think I've done an ok job doing it. We're just going around in circles here and I feel I'm debating some very nit picky points with people who just want to hate on Drizzt for the chance to prove that we're idiots for liking the character.

I don't think there is anything wrong with being inspired by a "template" and borrowing from it, plenty of gamers do it all the time. If you didn't like my examples, then come up with some better ones, cause you can't possibly think I'm wrong about that. That's all I'm getting at. Heck, when people come here asking for ideas for creating a new PC, the first thing people will say is, "Think about a character you like from a movie or book, and use that as a basis for your PC." So, I think I'm done arguing about the Drizzt cloning.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Perhaps we can make a NEW Drow archetype...based on Jimmy McMillan?

 

[Callista]

Drizzt verges on Mary Sue but he's not quite there--his major problematic trait is that he never seems to be tempted to do anything truly bad; his barbarian rage isn't nearly prominent enough to count as a temptation to be truly ruthless. I don't care if he's a deadly fighter so much as the way he's being portrayed as though he were Celestial or something--you know, the Always Good types who just aren't vulnerable to moral failure except in ridiculously extreme circumstances. Angst is not a substitute for true moral dilemmas.

Drizzt doesn't annoy me that much, though; I am quite fond of the way the battle scenes are written and I think I would've Magic Missile'd the author, if I'd been capable, over the latest events with Cattie-Brie and Regis, who have always been two of my favorites, along with Wulfgar.

 

[Ravellion]

So now we're talking about an optimal or not build as being the reasons to call it a Drizzt clone?

If someone's driving a Ferrari, he is not necessarily imitating Crockett from Miami Vice (a Ferrari is just an "optimal build"). If someone's driving a black van with a very specific red stripe on it...

 

[fireinthedust]

Drizzt verges on Mary Sue but he's not quite there--his major problematic trait is that he never seems to be tempted to do anything truly bad; his barbarian rage isn't nearly prominent enough to count as a temptation to be truly ruthless. I don't care if he's a deadly fighter so much as the way he's being portrayed as though he were Celestial or something--you know, the Always Good types who just aren't vulnerable to moral failure except in ridiculously extreme circumstances. Angst is not a substitute for true moral dilemmas.

ooooh, ooooh, or when he *is* tempted, it's not by something that's really a moral issue; and they skip over the real moral issues.

Drizzt: do I have a problem with murdering this zombie? Doesn't it's horrific unlife have value?! No? Okay, fine, but *only* if it's actively trying to eat someone's brains...

Regis: what about these were-rats, who are afflicted with the curse of lycanthropy, but otherwise might be valuable members of society if we paid for their curses to be removed?

Drizzt: Meh, kill them all, let the magical unicorn princess I date, er, worship sort them out.

 

[Mark Chance]

If someone's driving a Ferrari, he is not necessarily imitating Crockett from Miami Vice (a Ferrari is just an "optimal build"). If someone's driving a black van with a very specific red stripe on it...

...they're still not imitating Crockett from Miami Vice.