The Essentials Thief: Escaping from Light Blade Hell

[Prestidigitalis]

Thieves get +6 to damage rolls with Acrobat's trick, unconditional.

That is not absolutely true -- your move action is consumed in the process, when it might be safer to shift or there might be a positional advantage to moving at full speed.

I don't question for a moment that it's one of the two best Tricks, along with Tactical, but there will be times when you don't want to use it because of the movement clause.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Also, one particular build I've been meaning to make when I get the chance: the multiclass spiked chain feat which allows you to use a spiked chain as a dual weapon that counts as light blades. It is the 'best' light blade you can get (2d4 is slightly better than the 1d8 from the rapier, it has the same prof bonus, and even gives reach, plus sets up various two weapon fighting feats ... especially nice is the ability to get brutal 1 at paragon tier which is very nice for a 2d4 weapon. Not to mention, the utility retrain for the spiked chain multiclass gives threatening reach for an encounter, and with the ability to deal sneak attack 1/turn, enabling OAs for the rogue can pay off a lot).

 

[Aegeri]

You seem to be unaware that the slayer's damage bonus with all weapon attacks ramps up at a similar pace as the rogue, topping out at 8+Dex mod--or at least, you don't account for it. Advantage=Slayer

Having played with a thief and slayer at epic tier - out of curiosities sake - the slayer isn't in the same ballpark as the thief. In fact, the Slayer is in a different park a couple of blocks away. The thief does absolutely absurd damage by epic tier. Combined with backstab and their completely bonkers accuracy, the thief I built was pulling nearly 100 DPR, compared to the Slayer who was getting around 63 DPR.

Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with pulling 63 DPR, that's solid for a striker. But the Thief is in a different league to the slayer. The thief does not need any buffs whatsoever and is in an entirely different class. The thief has a single disadvantage in not being as consistent as the slayer, who literally isn't interested in what is happening around him. He just charges around hitting everything. At the same time the thief can happily charge around hitting everything as well. Ironically the charging thief utterly demolishes the slayer at the same thing. Especially because light blades have a lot of very solid enchantments and feats behind them to add damage - something that heavy blades don't have so much of.

 

[Gundark]

Bob I know I am nitpicking. But it is spelled thief not theif.

Regarding the theif only using light blades. If that irks you, then you have a right to be irked. Personally, I would take light blades anyway...its just such a good, well supported weapon group!

Regarding this Slayer > Theif debate. I gotta point out our groups rogue, which is a cunning sneak build. Mobility is key with that character and also to the theif, and to say the theif is less than the slayer because the slayer can average out more damage and has broader weapon groups is a very shallow argument.

Every class and build is a measure of the whole, and to focus on numeric comparisons of subcomponents wont get you anywhere. The way our sneak can weave through combat and hit the right target is phenominal. All the damage in the world would meaning nothing to him if he wasnt hitting in the right place at the right time.

(BTW, I found 3rd edition rogues with great weapons to be rediculous. Most of the time people didnt do it because thats the image of the character they wanted, they did it because it caused stupid damage. Yet they would still argue that this was their characters "theme" : good themes NEVER start with numbers)

 

[Drakhar]

That is not absolutely true -- your move action is consumed in the process, when it might be safer to shift or there might be a positional advantage to moving at full speed.

I don't question for a moment that it's one of the two best Tricks, along with Tactical, but there will be times when you don't want to use it because of the movement clause.

Oh I agree that there will be times when you don't want to use it, however that's one of the thieves strengths imho, they have far more tactical awareness compared to the Slayer with their fire and forget stances. In fact the high damage stance for the Slayer gives a penalty to hit, where as the thief may have to move, but then if you're partnered up with a defender you may actually want to be moving around a lot to provoke OA's from the enemy so that your defender is able to punish it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The existence of this discussion suggests, that both classes are balanced.

A high level slayer also wants to move around a lot. He is actually quite mobile himself. A slayer also has the advantage of beeing able to ignore the dazed state. A thief that is dazed is barred fom using any trick. And positioning in this state also might be difficult.

So it is just fait if the thief does more damage in the right situation. A slayer is also leaning more towards defender with his high hp and surges.

 

[Felon]

8+Dex mod does not trump 5d6+5, let alone 5d8+5. Assuming a huge focus on Dex, which is a secondary stat for Slayers, you're still getting only about +16 to the attack, and concidering the fact that Thieves get brutal sneak attack damage, the minimum extra a thief will get is +15.

In your previous post, you were comparing the thief's Weapon Finesse bonus to the slayer's Dex bonus to damage, and asserting that the former would exceed the latter. Acting on your comparison, I pointed out the erorr of not factoring in that the slayer's bonus also ramped. Now you are throwing in the sneak attack damage, which pads the numbers back into the thief's favor. The reason no to do so is that you are combining uncondiitonal damage with conditional damage.

And the Thief doesn't need +1 to all weapons because they only need to use Thief weapon types.

Well, in saying that, you've basically missed the entire point of this thread, which in fact is not to compare the slayer with the theif (although it seems to have gone off on that tangent).

You bring up Slayer's having higher AC then Thieves, which sadly is also unlikely. A rogue uses Dexterity as their main stat, which benefits them greatly to have high, and so assuming both classes take the ideal armors for them, will either have a Slayer in Scale and Thief in leather for no feat cost, or a Slayer in Plate and Thief in Hide for one feat. So a slayer is going to have either a +13/14 from their armor, while a thief will have +14/15.

I don't know where those numbers are coming from, but if it's supposed to reflect top-end epic-level +6 armor, then scale will net them more than +13. Then again, the thief will make out betteer than +14 as well.

 

[Felon]

Having played with a thief and slayer at epic tier - out of curiosities sake - the slayer isn't in the same ballpark as the thief. In fact, the Slayer is in a different park a couple of blocks away. The thief does absolutely absurd damage by epic tier. Combined with backstab and their completely bonkers accuracy, the thief I built was pulling nearly 100 DPR, compared to the Slayer who was getting around 63 DPR.

Tossing out numbers for two characters doesn't indicate that it's the classes themselves that acount for the differenial.

You're saying there's 37 points of difference between the theif and slayer, and nothing baked into the thief seems to suggest that kind of gulf is the norm.

 

[Felon]

The existence of this discussion suggests, that both classes are balanced.

I suspect they are balanced, which is why I replied to MrMyth that there isn't much problem in allowing the rogue more expansive weapon options at the expense the circumstanstial damage bonus when having CA.

 

[Aegeri]

Tossing out numbers for two characters doesn't indicate that it's the classes themselves that acount for the differenial.

You're saying there's 37 points of difference between the theif and slayer, and nothing baked into the thief seems to suggest that kind of gulf is the norm.

There are numerous aspects to the thief.

1) Ridiculous accuracy. Ridiculous.

2) Using deft blade (light blade feat) the rogue's MBAs will all target reflex - furthering the whole "ridiculous accuracy" point.

3) Backstab basically ensuring if they could miss, they never will miss and inflicting extra damage as a delightful bonus.

4) Sneak attack can be performed 1/turn, so you can simply ready an action to attack immediately after your turn to get a second large sneak attack bonus. Given both of my theoretical builds were using frost-cheese, CA was never an issue either.

5) Light blades have far superior feats. Far far far superior feats. We're not even in the same country here feat wise.

6) You are not aware of dagger master, where the thief - with totally ridiculous accuracy already - is now critting on an 18-20 with all his attacks. That are all against reflex, if we've forgot that point. Did I mention he's able to throw on backstabber for extra damage and max's out all his sneak attack damage - that he gets 1/turn on nearly every attack he does? Oh I didn't, well consider that mentioned.

I mean the slayer is not a slouch, but he's nothing compared to a well optimized chargathon thief. It's worth noting the fundamental difference here *is* sneak attack being a constant. The slayer gets a damage spike now and again with power strike, but the thief constantly outdoes his damage due to SA. Combined with the assumption of constant combat advantage and things like a subtle dagger adding 2x enhancement on every attack, with an 18-20 crit range on every attack. Well, it's not hard to work out why the thief is so dominant here.