The Essentials Thief: Escaping from Light Blade Hell

[MrMyth]

Basically, any weapon that's mechanically in the same pay-grade as a rapir (e.g. a longsword, scimitar, broadsword, battleaxe--heck, just about any military one-hander) isn't any kind of game-changer at all, just a variant. It's only when venturing into two-hander territory that trepadation is in order, and that can be addressed by diminishing the benefit of sneak attack. If CA is indeed easy to get, then watering down sneak attack would represent a genuine trade-off that keeps the overall damage output within reasonable bounds.

I'm... not sure I'm actually in disagreement with you, here, as that's pretty much what I was saying up thread. I'm hesitant to say that there should be an official feat allowing this, just cause I haven't taken a close enough look to see if any abuse if possible, but I think its the sort of thing I'd be perfectly fine with as a DM.

Let me try and address the original question where, I think, some of this debate seemed to spring from:

Let me put it likes this: why would any of this be a potential problem for the rogue, but not for the slayer? The latter class gets a non-conditional, unlimited usage +1 to hit and Dex bonus to damage on all of his attacks. His stances give him access to bigger damages than thse stances afforded the thief.

So, let's say for the sake of simplicity that using a non-sneaky weapon like a fullblade loses a die of sneak attack. At the heroic tier, he's getting an extra 1d6 3.5 points points of damage. The slayer easily makes up almost all of that with his Dex bonus, and as a consolation prize for the remainder, he's got superior AC and HP.

I think this was where most people objected - you seemed to be treating the Slayer's damage bonus, since it was 'always on', as being in a different category from Sneak Attack. I just don't see it that way, and think very few do - Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, Warlock's Curse, Sorcerers adding Str or Dex, and Slayers adding Dex - these are all the classes core 'striker mechanic'.

Now, Thieves and Slayers tend to get some extra bonuses, largely to compensate for lack of dailies. The rogue tends to get ones associated with skil abilities or with damage, while the slayer gets ones that boost durability and mobility.

It does become hard to directly measure some of these different specializations... but I think in terms of raw damage, the thief already tends to come out ahead of the Slayer. Partly because he has more options for feats to boost damage. Backstabber is a pretty big one - but you can't dismiss it, because the Slayer simply doesn't have any equivalent feat. Giving the thief another feat that could potentially boost damage by several points, when the Slayer doesn't have any such options... I don't think that would be reasonable.

But offering a feat that allows an upgrade to a bigger weapon at the cost of a die of sneak attack? Where the rogue's max damage essentially stays the same, but they now are more viable without combat advantage (as well as allowing more concepts to be explored?) I think that's perfectly viable, especially in a home game.

 

[Felon]

I'm... not sure I'm actually in disagreement with you, here, as that's pretty much what I was saying up thread. I'm hesitant to say that there should be an official feat allowing this, just cause I haven't taken a close enough look to see if any abuse if possible, but I think its the sort of thing I'd be perfectly fine with as a DM.

Well, like I said in the OP, there's already a feat called Versatile Duelist that would fit if it was worded a little differently (to focus on benefiting attacks and the sneak attack ability, without referring to powers). So, I guess somebody in a decision-making capacity was OK with it.

 

[MrMyth]

Well, like I said in the OP, there's already a feat called Versatile Duelist that would fit if it was worded a little differently (to focus on benefiting attacks and the sneak attack ability, without referring to powers). So, I guess somebody in a decision-making capacity was OK with it.

You know, I hadn't even realized that Versatile Duelist doesn't help Thieves. The intent is certainly there, but hindered by the wording. I definitely agree it should work just fine for Thieves, as the designers would be perfectly ok with it. But remember, that is a feat specifically for one-handed blades.

What I was referring to was feats for allowing even larger weapons - even with a reduction in sneak attack, I think it is the sort of thing I'd be more comfortable as a house rule rather than a core game rule. And even then, mainly just because I haven't examined too closely what abuses, if any, are possible for Thieves with Mordenkrads.

 

[MrMyth]

Anyway, to try and find a solution for your actual original question... what is the rest of your character like? What weapons specifically are you trying to find a way to wield?

I know most of these options have come up already in the thread, but wanted to try and run down a comprehensive list of choices...

I'm not sure of any way to actually use a 2-handed weapon like a falchion.

The staff is available via the Sneaky Staff feat (which gives you both sneak attack and your weapon finesse bonuses with it), and makes the staff a decent option overall - accuracy is low (though Thieves can make up for that in other ways), but there is good feat support; extended reach, reliable combat advantage at Paragon, etc.

Dwarves can use Warhammer via Lethal Hammer Training, or any one-handed axe/hammer/pick via Tunnel Stalker - though that one costs you a die of sneak attack.

Moonbow Stalker gives rogues access to shortbows, but I think Thieves get that access automatically.

Rogues can get access to using clubs and maces, as an others via a rogue multi-class feat - but, unfortunately, that means Thieves are left out, since they don't get Rogue Weapon Training, but still aren't allowed to take Rogue Multi-class feats. A shame, because using clubs means, I believe, that you can use the Belt of the Brawler to instead use unarmed attacks and improvised weapons.

And, of course, you can always just dual-wield, having a sneak attack usable weapon in one hand, and a non-sneak attack weapon for when you don't have combat advantage.

Outside of that, reflavoring does seem the best bet. You might also see if you can hunt down any weapon that has multiple weapon types, letting one of the above feats make it qualify for use - I couldn't find anything in the Compendium, but the Compendium is trash for trying to search for ordinary weapons, so that doesn't mean there isn't a good option out there.

 

[PeBiHa]

Just one comment on Slayers vs. Thieves.

Exactly how come we're talking about a Fullblade wielding Slayer? Isn't that a lot like shooting yourself in the foot or like a Rogue wielding a non-Rogue weapon?

The weapon of choice for Slayers must be the Spear, in particular the Gouge. In heroic levels the spear Slayer can definitely keep up with the Rogue in terms of damage, due to Surprising Charge cheese.

Surprising Charge adds 1[W] to the damage when you charge, have combat advantage and wields a Spear or a Light Blade. You might be provoking some attacks of opportunity in order to zoom out and charge back into the fray, but your damage is high.

As an example my level 2 Slayer (18 str, 18 dex; Feats: Surprising Charge, Weapon Proficiency - Gouge) has Str 4 + Prof 2 + Class 1 + Level 1 + Charge 1 + Stance 2 + CA 2 = +13 to hit on his charge attack. This is definitely comparable to the Thief's attack bonus.

The damage on this charge is 2d6 (gouge) + 2d6 (surprising charge) + 4 (str) + 4 (dex). On top of that it is a brutal weapon, so 1's are rerolled. This gives us an average damage around 24 or so, I believe.

Rather than use the Gouge you could replace the Gouge feat with Greatspear (or at lower levels use the longspear, which has +2 proficiency, rather than greatspear +3) and grab Polearm Flanker. Then you would have reach and would be able to flank from 2 squares out and you can make a lot of polearm cheese.

On higher levels the Thief can grab Deft Blade. Similarly the Spear slayer has Impaling Spear, which also allows him to attack on Reflex. And the Slayer can grab the Draeven Marauder Paragon Path, which allows him to make criticals on 19-20 when using spears.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Exactly how come we're talking about a Fullblade wielding Slayer? Isn't that a lot like shooting yourself in the foot or like a Rogue wielding a non-Rogue weapon?

I'll give that one a shot. Um, no?

The weapon of choice for Slayers must be the Spear, in particular the Gouge.

The Greatspear I can see, but a campaign setting-specific abomination with a clunky name? There are some among us who let aesthetics play a role in our choices, and the Gouge Makes My Gorge Rise.

In heroic levels the spear Slayer can definitely keep up with the Rogue in terms of damage, due to Surprising Charge cheese.

If it has earned wide application of the adjective "cheese", I'm not interested in it.

Those are just my views, but you did start your comment with a question.

 

[gjnave]

Moreover, a class's role outside of attacking things has been given far deeoer enphasis than the niche of utility powers (where they would often wind up neglected in favor of attack buffs).

I was wondering about this.. any cool Roleplaying feats are usually overlooked in our games, because players feel they're screwing themselves over if they dont take some sort of attack.

Please give an example of HOW exactly, Essentials emphasises "a classes role outside of attacking".

 

[The Weregamer]

The Tiefling Rogue in my game really wanted to use a scythe, mainly because she thought it looked cool. She couldn't care a wit about optimization. I let her do it at the cost of two feats; one for proficiency and one homemade feat for Scythe-With-Rogue-Powers usefulness. Now she's at -2 to hit and +1d4 damage vs. using a dagger. Hasn't been a problem.

 

[Brian Compton]

Another option - make a Sniper thief. Ambush and Tactical Trick both allow combat advantage up to 5 squares away, and with some of the feats from Forgotten Kingdoms, a shortbow thief is just as nasty as a light blade thief.

 

[Brian Compton]

Please give an example of HOW exactly, Essentials emphasises "a classes role outside of attacking".

Off the top of my head, thieves get extra ability with skills. A lot of utility powers have certain skill pre-reqs, and the thief also gets opportunities to learn new skills for free and improve their success outcomes (a roll of 20 giving double success, for one).