The Essentials Thief: Escaping from Light Blade Hell

[twilsemail]

I suspect they are balanced, which is why I replied to MrMyth that there isn't much problem in allowing the rogue more expansive weapon options at the expense the circumstanstial damage bonus when having CA.

There's nothing preventing you from using that Buster Sword you really want... just take the proficiency feat and hack away. I don't see, at this point, what you are arguing. You want to be able to use non-thief weapons and not get sneak attack damage? You can do that.

 

[Aegeri]

Also, your normal rogue can use a heavy blade pretty effectively and even get + damage from strength. The Drow Rogue in my Eberron game does this and is doing comparable - if actually slightly less - damage to the thief in my Dark Sun game. In fact I am keeping a quiet competition up between who will do the most damage over time. It is one of the more interesting contests I've seen in one of my games (especially as they are two different players in two entirely different styles of game).

If you want to play a heavy blade rogue, just do that. Thieves are not wonderful with heavy blades, but what they are good at they are plainly amazing at.

 

[Drakhar]

In your previous post, you were comparing the thief's Weapon Finesse bonus to the slayer's Dex bonus to damage, and asserting that the former would exceed the latter. Acting on your comparison, I pointed out the erorr of not factoring in that the slayer's bonus also ramped. Now you are throwing in the sneak attack damage, which pads the numbers back into the thief's favor. The reason no to do so is that you are combining uncondiitonal damage with conditional damage.

Wrong, You were the first to mention sneak attack damage when you brought up losing a die of it in order to use a fullblade, and then went on to say that a Slayer makes up for that with their dex bonus. And as far as conditional vs Unconditional, it's extremely easy for a thief to get CA now.

Well, in saying that, you've basically missed the entire point of this thread, which in fact is not to compare the slayer with the theif (although it seems to have gone off on that tangent).

The problem here is that you seem to want to make a thief into a slayer. A rogues source of damage has always been their sneak attack, not their weapon die.

I don't know where those numbers are coming from, but if it's supposed to reflect top-end epic-level +6 armor, then scale will net them more than +13. Then again, the thief will make out betteer than +14 as well.

The flat armor bonus from the +6 scale is +13, where as for leather it is 4+Dex, which starting at 18 dex will net you a +8 modifier, couple that with the likely hood of an epic destiny granting you a +2 to Dex, you'll equal the armor bonus at +13, and a 20 starting dex pushes you past it. So the armor bonus from leather will likely range from +12 to +14
depending on your dex, I slightly miscalculated the middle point earlier.

 

[Mentat55]

I don't really have a problem with allowing rogues to use other weapons -- I think a feat is a reasonable cost, though. With the various Weapon Finesse features, thieves have an incentive to use thief weapons, and there is a lot of synergistic light blade feat support (Light Blade Expertise, Nimble Blade, Deft Blade).

At level 30, a thief with a 26 Dex, a +6 weapon, Weapon Focus, and Backstabber will do the following on a sneak attack (I've included the slayer as a rough comparison, I know that there are other considerations I am neglecting):
Dagger (+ Light Blade Expertise): 2d4 + 25 + 5d8 = 52.5 avg, critical 6d6 + 73 (avg 92)
Rapier (+ Light Blade Expertise): 2d8 + 25 + 5d8 = 56.5 avg, critical 6d6 + 81 (102)
Fullblade: 2d12 + 17 + 5d8 = 52.5 avg, critical 6d6 + 3d12 + 81 (avg 121.5)
Fullblade (slayer with 26 Dex) = 2d12 + 33 = 46 avg, critical 6d6 + 3d12 + 57 (avg 97.5)

Assuming a 70% hit rate with the fullblade (75% hit rate with light blades because of Thief Weapon Talent) and a 10% crit rate (though it would be expensive for a thief to get Heavy Blade Mastery), the average damage works out to:

Dagger -- 43.3
Rapier -- 46.9
Fullblade -- 43.7
Fullblade (slayer with Weapon Talent) -- 39.7

This neglects feat benefits like having Nimble Blade and Deft Blade, which is an awesome feat for a thief (attack Reflex with basic attacks with a light blade? yes please!).

Since the thief's Power Strike equivalent is Backstab, which does not depend on [W] size, then the impact is minimal. This might be a bigger deal for the PHB1 rogue, since it is power-based.

Basically, I think using any weapon with Sneak Attack is fine. Using any weapon with rogue powers would require a more in-depth look.

 

[sigfile]

6) You are not aware of dagger master, where the thief - with totally ridiculous accuracy already - is now critting on an 18-20 with all his attacks.

I wish. Unfortunately, the Daggermaster's expanded crit range only applies to Rogue and Daggermaster power attacks, not melee or ranged basic attacks.

 

[Aegeri]

I wish. Unfortunately, the Daggermaster's expanded crit range only applies to Rogue and Daggermaster power attacks, not melee or ranged basic attacks.

:O

You are completely right. Can't believe I forgot that! I build all my characters by hand using the books and I had overlooked that Daggermaster had been errat'ed (minding, I did remember that Dagger Sorcerers could no longer benefit from it - but forgot that MBAs didn't count). Without daggermaster I would need to go for another option, then again I can upgrade to a rapier for some extra [W] and it will still cut a bit off my DPR. I easily qualify for Light Blade Mastery by epic so I will still have a 19-20 crit range. That does hurt quite a lot though.

Minding, looking at Master Thief it doesn't look like a bad option at all.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Actually, a 3e rogue could fit all manner of concepts. 1st and 2nd editions locked them into a straitjacket of highly situational value, 3e freed them from it, and apparently 4e wants them mechanically potent, but conceptually back in the jacket. Seems lame that thieves have to settle for one "schtick" while other classes have a multitude of options.

A few shticks rather than just one. See the dagger, the rapier, the hand crossbow... But I think you're misunderstanding 4e; the combat and non-combat roles have been largely (although not entirely) separated and the thief's combat shticks are what they are because that's what the thief is. Get a Scout trained in stealth and thievery and he's socially a thief although fights differently. Do the same with a Hunter and give him a crossbow and he's a sniper. And as much a thief as a normal thief - training in the right skills and pretty damn sneaky.

 

[MrMyth]

In your previous post, you were comparing the thief's Weapon Finesse bonus to the slayer's Dex bonus to damage, and asserting that the former would exceed the latter. Acting on your comparison, I pointed out the erorr of not factoring in that the slayer's bonus also ramped. Now you are throwing in the sneak attack damage, which pads the numbers back into the thief's favor. The reason no to do so is that you are combining uncondiitonal damage with conditional damage.

I don't think that's a fair claim at all. The Slayer's Dex bonus to damage is his striker damage bonus, which is equivalent to the Thief's Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack tends to give a higher damage boost than most strikers get - and it is conditional, but nonetheless can be expected to be available the vast majority of the time. The entire reason why Thieves are restricted to smaller weapons, mechanically, is because of the high damage of sneak attack.

I mean, yes, this is a slight tangent for the thread - you wanted to know how a rogue can get around their weapon restriction. In the course of that discussion, it seemed that you felt these weapon restrictions were unfair, so people have tried to explain why the restrictions exist.

I suspect they are balanced, which is why I replied to MrMyth that there isn't much problem in allowing the rogue more expansive weapon options at the expense the circumstanstial damage bonus when having CA.

I think the point is that they are balanced as they current exist. Removing the thief's weapon restrictions would lead to becoming unbalanced. I think you may be underestimating how often CA is available - even for standard Rogues, you could expect to have it most of the time, and I think Thieves can expect it virtually all day long due to their tricks - with the only exception being, perhaps, when they are dazed.

Would giving Thieves access to Fullblades break the game? Probably not. There are plenty of levels of optimization already out there, and many other worse combos.

But it would, at its core, give the class a higher damage boost than is appropriate for the general game. A Slayer's damage bonus is significantly less than a Thief's. He has less options available to expand his damage. Giving him yet another feat that can increase his damage by 4 points or more... well, it starts to get unreasonable.

Now, its fine if you want to find a way around this for thematic reasons. And... several have been suggested, whether reflavoring or talking with the DM or otherwise. But mechanically, yes, there is a good reason for the Thief's weapon limitations - and while some folks may have been rather extreme in their defense of this fact, it doesn't change the truth of what they've been saying.

 

[Felon]

I think the point is that they are balanced as they current exist. Removing the thief's weapon restrictions would lead to becoming unbalanced. I think you may be underestimating how often CA is available - even for standard Rogues, you could expect to have it most of the time, and I think Thieves can expect it virtually all day long due to their tricks - with the only exception being, perhaps, when they are dazed.

Many classes are fine the way they are--and yet, new options get added for them all the time. The essentials classes on the whole are a good example. Being "fine as it is" is no reason not to look a different option for someone to play with.

I don't underestimate how often CA is available. Not for nunthin', but I actually do play the game, so I know in some rounds it simply isn't available, and in others it might be technically possible, but practicality necessitates letting it slide.

Would giving Thieves access to Fullblades break the game? Probably not. There are plenty of levels of optimization already out there, and many other worse combos.

But it would, at its core, give the class a higher damage boost than is appropriate for the general game. A Slayer's damage bonus is significantly less than a Thief's. He has less options available to expand his damage. Giving him yet another feat that can increase his damage by 4 points or more... well, it starts to get unreasonable.

Now, its fine if you want to find a way around this for thematic reasons. And... several have been suggested, whether reflavoring or talking with the DM or otherwise. But mechanically, yes, there is a good reason for the Thief's weapon limitations - and while some folks may have been rather extreme in their defense of this fact, it doesn't change the truth of what they've been saying.

I don't think anyone's been all that extreme, but then again I don't think anyone's handed me any grand, manifestly indisputable truth descending from the clouds on a shaft of light either. I already knew that I could talk to my DM. What I don't know are all of the feats currently in existence.

Basically, any weapon that's mechanically in the same pay-grade as a rapier (e.g. a longsword, scimitar, broadsword, battleaxe--heck, just about any military one-hander) isn't any kind of game-changer at all, just a variant. It's only when venturing into two-hander territory that trepadation is in order, and that can be addressed by diminishing the benefit of sneak attack. If CA is indeed easy to get, then watering down sneak attack would represent a genuine trade-off that keeps the overall damage output within reasonable bounds.

 

[BobTheNob]

Bob I know I am nitpicking. But it is spelled thief not theif.

Wot me no spel so gud!?

(Picky Picky Picky)