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I'm considering dropping Pathfinder to return to D&D 2e.
- Thread starter zonetrooper1
- Start date
Hackmaster is desperately in need of some good computer utilities in order to make it a bit less overwhelming, IMO. Cranking out some BASIC code for that purpose at the moment.
It's the best of AD&D 1E (cantrips, DMG, assassins, monks, edgy spells and monsters, oriental adventures honor and martial arts systems made core, anti-paladins made core and given the decent name of "dark knight") and 2E (wild mages, Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog, 2E thief skill choices, select kits like the Blade and the Gladiator) plus colorful stuff from other systems, like GURPS style quirks and flaws and Rolemaster style critical hits. Plus house rules like armor damage, saves versus apology (which make sense under honor rules), and Byzantine emphasis on things like alignment audits.
The game needs it's splats and errata to make sense, and is buggy and exploitable, riddled with DM fiat and plays up GM versus players as a feature, not a bug. There is a lot to love and a lot to hate here, but after you begin to identify with Hackmaster's color and attention to detail, everything else begins to seem kind of bland.
It's the other extreme of the pendulum to the way WOTC's 4E has swung. It is the antichrist to their design philosophy. I think it's worth another look because with Hackmaster 4E being everything D&D 4E is not, you can see it's virtues moreso than when it was released (and the shine hadn't come off of 3E yet).
But without utilities, it's a mountain of rules to run. It intimidates me without code on my side.
It's the best of AD&D 1E (cantrips, DMG, assassins, monks, edgy spells and monsters, oriental adventures honor and martial arts systems made core, anti-paladins made core and given the decent name of "dark knight") and 2E (wild mages, Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog, 2E thief skill choices, select kits like the Blade and the Gladiator) plus colorful stuff from other systems, like GURPS style quirks and flaws and Rolemaster style critical hits. Plus house rules like armor damage, saves versus apology (which make sense under honor rules), and Byzantine emphasis on things like alignment audits.
The game needs it's splats and errata to make sense, and is buggy and exploitable, riddled with DM fiat and plays up GM versus players as a feature, not a bug. There is a lot to love and a lot to hate here, but after you begin to identify with Hackmaster's color and attention to detail, everything else begins to seem kind of bland.
It's the other extreme of the pendulum to the way WOTC's 4E has swung. It is the antichrist to their design philosophy. I think it's worth another look because with Hackmaster 4E being everything D&D 4E is not, you can see it's virtues moreso than when it was released (and the shine hadn't come off of 3E yet).
But without utilities, it's a mountain of rules to run. It intimidates me without code on my side.
Shades of Green
First Post
Some of my fondest gaming memories are from playing 2E (Hebrew version in my case) with only the three core-books, an old set of dice and a homebrew setting. The mechanics might be a little clunky and some of the splatbook stuff not so well thought out, but 2E definitely doesn't deserve the bad rep it gets in some places.
I say go for it - you could probably have TONS of fun playing 2E core!
I say go for it - you could probably have TONS of fun playing 2E core!
Aberzanzorax
Hero
I'll my group enjoyed 2e, but one criticisim.
We found the "Player's Option" supplements to take a lot of the fun out of the system (Skills and Powers, Spells & Magic, Combat & Tactics).
I can't speak for your group, obviously, but if my group ever goes back to 2e, we will not be using those particular books.
Enjoy your system of choice!
We found the "Player's Option" supplements to take a lot of the fun out of the system (Skills and Powers, Spells & Magic, Combat & Tactics).
I can't speak for your group, obviously, but if my group ever goes back to 2e, we will not be using those particular books.
Enjoy your system of choice!
zonetrooper1
First Post
Something that is making my discussion difficult is the use of skills and feats in Pathfinder. I like them a great deal and can appreciate how much of the clunkiness they help alleviate. I may be being to ambitious right now but I think I will be seeing if there is a way to retrofit some of these to 2e while ditching the proficiencies. It has been so much easier to allow perception checks for thing rather than try to figure out if they were successful in finding "whatever" some other way.
DaveMage
Slumbering in Tsar
This is exactly why I couldn't go back to earlier editions.
I really love the skills and feats innovation.
Also, another thing is, there's no 2E bladesinger in Pathfinder.
If you allow the 2E bladesinger into your game, you may soon realize the problems with 2E. However, as someone said above, if you stick to the core, you should be fine.
pneumatik
The 8th Evil Sage
I ran 2E for years before 3E came out. Some things to keep in mind include:
- Uneven leveling between classes. I really enjoyed this change with 3E.
- Warrior classes really slow down their leveling rate when they approach mid-levels. And for straight fighters they even barely get anything when they level at that point.
- Wizards start out pretty worthless yet level very slowly. Then, once they finally start to get powerful they also start leveling quickly.
- Thieves level quickly all the time but never seem to catch up in effectiveness.
- Subsystems are not consistent with each other.
- Assumes you don't use a battlemat. I generally liked this, but switching back from 3+E might be challenging or confusing.
- Kits.
I'm not trying to start an edition war here. I had a blast playing 2E. But IMHO 3E made some definite improvements, if at the cost of added complexity.
- Uneven leveling between classes. I really enjoyed this change with 3E.
- Warrior classes really slow down their leveling rate when they approach mid-levels. And for straight fighters they even barely get anything when they level at that point.
- Wizards start out pretty worthless yet level very slowly. Then, once they finally start to get powerful they also start leveling quickly.
- Thieves level quickly all the time but never seem to catch up in effectiveness.
- Subsystems are not consistent with each other.
- Assumes you don't use a battlemat. I generally liked this, but switching back from 3+E might be challenging or confusing.
- Kits.
I'm not trying to start an edition war here. I had a blast playing 2E. But IMHO 3E made some definite improvements, if at the cost of added complexity.
