Huge monsters in E6

[prosfilaes]

E6 is about little fish in a big pond.

I think that there's far from consensus on that. That's one way to play it, but not the only way, and I'm not sure that's the way most people play it.

But he has "won": he's got a lair filled with treasure at the deepest level of a dungeon. If he comes out, the kings of the earth throw gold and magic at his feet, and feed him maidens on a platter. He's big, and stupid, and that's enough for him.

I think that comes down very strongly on the "the very nature of the game world will change". The concept that a maiden eating dragon doesn't come to an end at the hand of the protagonists is alien to pretty much all fiction I know of.

And canonically, dragons aren't stupid. At older ages, they can be brighter than any E6 PC could be without the aid of magic.

Not everyone is ambitious like Lex Luthor. Some people are fine with full bellies. Others with enough rum to keep them drunk. Why would a lot of the big monsters want anything more? They're not social animals like humans are.

Some of them are. Mind flayers, for example. Cloud and fire giants are social, even if they aren't quite as social as humans. Several of the dragons can be quite social; the description for PF's brass dragons is "Consummate conversationalists, brass dragons prefer to talk instead of fight. Brass dragons lair near humanoid settlements, where they can hear the most recent news and gossip." That's a passable summery of the 3.0 MM description.

 

[Runestar]

Think there was a thread at giantip about a 6th lv party who was able to defeat a balor.

So yeah, why bother holding back?

Still, this means those demon lord aspects would make for excellent boss-type characters.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Maybe the easiest way to translate this feel back to d20 System games is to use monsters from a version where they've already been somewhat nerfed.

Exactly!

Also, "You must spread some XP around (etc.)"

Redesigning (or, indeed, "porting") dragons makes a lot of sense for e6. Because, I would have to agree, many things just don't, by default.

Even with prestige feats and, more importantly, Incantations (or the like). Essentially, access to higher-level stuff. Yeah, even then, it ain't gonna cut it. Not against such redonkulously inflated critters.

I suppose I'm more or less in agreement with the OP, in that I see e6 being in need of some serious house ruling. So, naturally, that's exactly what I did.

 

[Jorunkun]

In my book, a dragon would be a perfect fit for an E6 campaign - as the scourge of the campaign world, the arch-opponent, a threat to be fled dozens of times before it is faced once, in the game's ultimate combat encounter. Where it can only be defeated by the greatest heroes of the age, after much thorough preperation, using all their might and magic. What could be more rewarding?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Allow me to offer a "middle ground" theory.

There is a place for balors and dragons and demigods in an e6 game, even as adversaries that the PC's confront.

However, "beating" them doesn't involve attack and damage rolls vs. AC and HP and fireballs and whirlwind attacks.

Beating them involves skill use and macguffin hunting and minion-slaying and weakness-hunting.

Think of an '80's slasher flick villain, or a werewolf, or the old vampire stories.

No mere mortal can simply walk up to these bad dudes and start beating on 'em. They must be clever, careful, and adroit. They must find the silver bullet, or consipre to drive a stake through its heart. They must find and exploit a weakness, or seal away evil with a ritual.

E6 heroes generally don't walk up to the Terrasque and start beating its face in with their rusty swords.

But they might learn the magical lullaby that, when sung into its ears, will lull it into sleep for another millennium.

This involves quests (learning the verses to the lullaby), minion-slaying (gotta fight the BBEG that awoke the thing!), skill use (dodging stomping feet and clawing hands and biting maws to climb and jump and fly alongside the thing and find its ear with your monster knowledge and sing well enough with your performance skills and distract the enemy from the good singer with your bluff checks), and even only partial-victory (the thing isn't dead, it still will live, but its fury, for now, is spent).

Think about the enemy more like a force of nature. You can't fight a flood; you can't beat up an earthquake. You can survive them, you can protect against them, and you can be heroic in the face of them, but it doesn't involve killing anything. This is not Achilles beating up a river. This is Odysseus lost at sea.

(personally, I think a lot of high-level monsters can be dealt with more entertainingly in this way, but that's an axe to grind some other time)

 

[Aus_Snow]

In my book, a dragon would be a perfect fit for an E6 campaign - as the scourge of the campaign world, the arch-opponent, a threat to be fled dozens of times before it is faced once, in the game's ultimate combat encounter. Where it can only be defeated by the greatest heroes of the age, after much thorough preperation, using all their might and magic. What could be more rewarding?

Yeah, nice.

Except they would *fail*. Dismally. Not to mention... swiftly.

Checked some 3e dragon stats lately?

I'm talking proper, bloody big dragons. Not the little ones. Killing dragon whelps might be the height of heroism in some stories/campaigns. But... yeah. :\

 

[Dice4Hire]

Yeah, nice.

Except they would *fail*. Dismally. Not to mention... swiftly.

Checked some 3e dragon stats lately?

I'm talking proper, bloody big dragons. Not the little ones. Killing dragon whelps might be the height of heroism in some stories/campaigns. But... yeah. :

Come on 5,000 1st level mages can take one with magic missile.

Just gotta find 5,000 1st level mages.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Come on 5,000 1st level mages can take one with magic missile.

Just gotta find 5,000 1st level mages.

Hehe, this actually brings up a really good point. Even under the strictest interpretation of E6 rules, there can be a huge range of power levels in the setting.

A common default assumption is that E6 worlds are 99% populated by 1st level NPC classes. But one can just as easily build a high-magic (as in high amount of magic, not high-level magic) setting, even in a very strict E6 world, in which the populace is mostly geniuses and olympic athletes of 4th or 5th level. In such a world, the nobility might maintain huge stores of magic items, and sponsor mage academies precisely so they can pop off thousands of magic missiles when a dragon harasses the city.

So, yes, as the OP says, that certainly changes the nature of an E6 campaign, even without house rules to up the PCs' power level.

It also occurs to me that for E6, I tend to prefer advancing (in HD, size, templates) lower-level monsters rather than using higher-level ones. In the case of a young adult (or even just a juvenile) black dragon, for example, it's fairly straightforward to simply increase it to huge size, to give it a boost to AC, hp and damage, without boosting its special abilities. It's not optimal, but it's a start toward embiggening a beast in a way that doesn't necessarily immediately toast E6 PCs.

(Fwiw, I'll also mention the E6 "baseline" SRD thread in Legacy forum. As it happens, at the moment we're talking about which monsters (and feats) to include and how. It would certainly be helpful to hear more input. Here's a link to the beginning of the monster discussion.)

 

[Jorunkun]

Yeah, nice.

Except they would *fail*. Dismally. Not to mention... swiftly.

Checked some 3e dragon stats lately?

I'm talking proper, bloody big dragons. Not the little ones. Killing dragon whelps might be the height of heroism in some stories/campaigns. But... yeah. :

Well, I wasn't talking about an ancient red. And obviously it would be tough, that's the point. But still - a good size party at 6th + a couple of extra feats, with a good range of items and spells prepared for the occasion ...

Keep in mind, this wouldn't be a random encounter/plain stand-up fight, but the end-point of the campaigns meta-plot - something to prepare for many sessions ahead, including finding legendary items that protect against dragon breath, or a sword forged to defeat it, a map of its lair to take advantage of terrain, trick it ...don't think it might work?

 

[fireinthedust]

Magic Missile: Aside from the PF version, I think the "broad magic" setting (ie: lots of low-level magic) could do well with also using scrolls of MM, and arming citizens with high enough Charisma to UMD with them. Not just wizards, then, but sorcerers and bards, paladins, clerics, and some rogues. No wands I think, but lots of scrolls; unless the wand rules are expanded for braod magical settings.


Back on topic: the geist of what's being said is that it's unrealistic to assume uber monsters can be defeated by E6 characters. I get that, and agree on principle: it's a good idea for a generic encounter, or even a dungeon boss, to not use them.

The OP, having quoted me for the OP, should know that the point I'm getting to is that having uber monsters in a setting doesn't mean they're like normal monsters or even need to be fought. That's the geist of what I'm saying (as has been echoed by a chorus of other posters here).

So they have a place, it's just a rare one.

And there are ways to beat them, they're just not standard methods.

AND that using them is for story purposes and plot reasons.