Aus_Snow
First Post
Neither was I.
No, insta-TPK, in fact.
... will fail. Dismally. Swiftly too. Like I said.
In a word: No.
Huge monsters in E6
Stormonu
Legend
In an E6 game, it is clear that high-powered threats are dealt with via numbers and superior tactics.
The demon is lured to a special room that imprisons him or weakens him in some way for the party (and their henchmen) can take it down.
Beowulf and his companions face off with the dragon. Yes, beowulf dies, but the dragon goes down. Bard, on the other hand, kills his dragon with a one-of-a-kind arrow and a very skillful shot; he'd have never stood a chance against Smaug toe to toe. I could see Beowulf or Bard easily as an E6 PC.
Surely, they will be rare and powerful end-game type opponents, but I think its unfair to not include them as truly terrifying opponents that through determination, craftiness and a little bit of help can be taken down.
The demon is lured to a special room that imprisons him or weakens him in some way for the party (and their henchmen) can take it down.
Beowulf and his companions face off with the dragon. Yes, beowulf dies, but the dragon goes down. Bard, on the other hand, kills his dragon with a one-of-a-kind arrow and a very skillful shot; he'd have never stood a chance against Smaug toe to toe. I could see Beowulf or Bard easily as an E6 PC.
Surely, they will be rare and powerful end-game type opponents, but I think its unfair to not include them as truly terrifying opponents that through determination, craftiness and a little bit of help can be taken down.
prosfilaes
Adventurer
An adult red dragon in D&D 3.x has SR 21. 5,000 1st level mages couldn't defeat it. 5,000 1st level sorcerers with magic missile might be able to, if there weren't frightful presence; few of them would get off a second shot.
Assume they are immune to dragon breath; it can usually hover, and with its BAB of +31, do a bite attack, front claws, back claws, and tail sweep, for 2d8, 2d6, and 2d6. Or they can crush a small character or two or three for 2d8 + 10ish, leaving them pinned and taking that damage every turn. This is assuming that it doesn't have magic items, and it's not taking advantage of the fact it's a seventh level sorcerer. Did we mention that it's very smart and its lair is probably built to repeal invaders? If you gave them enough magic items to defeat it, it'll be a little ridiculous.
prosfilaes
Adventurer
Face off is right. The dragon just couldn't have been that much more power than Beowulf, in D&D terms. An awesome fight, but if Beowulf was an E6 PC, the dragon was no more than CR 8 or 9.
I'm trying to envision this battle in a way that would be fun to play. You have a one-of-a-kind arrow; you roll and either hit or miss. Either way that's it. You didn't engage Smaug, because if he had noticed you, you would dead. The entire climatic battle is one roll.
I'm a little sorry that I had the implicit blind spot that the monsters in the Monster Manual were fixed. Those who brought it up are right; in many cases, the thing to do is dial back the monsters. A dragon can be a fearsome beast without 253 HP and SR 21.
Theo R Cwithin
I cast "Baconstorm!"
This brings to mind one of things that irritates me about 3e (and maybe also holds for other systems?): It's quite difficult to "dial back" most monsters.
Precious few templates work to de-power things. I think I've only ever found four or five, all of which are very niche, except PF's "young" quick-template. And trying to unravel a creature HD by HD is just painful and error-prone, especially where oddball special abilities come in.
That's why I've usually resorted to powering up a lower-level creature, instead. With dragons, this is easy because you have lower-level examples of the same creature to work with. Thus it's easy enough to take a juvenile red dragon and boost its size, slap an "ancient" label on it, and call it a day.
With other creatures, though, it's usually more difficult. You could take a lesser similar creature and possibly power that up, but finding that "similar" creature isn't always easy. How do you take tarrasque or nightcrawler down a few notches?
fireinthedust
Explorer
Ah-hah! ...no, you're right, SR does work. (Sorcerers? Why them and not Wizards?)
See, but you're missing the point. They're supposed to do that. Smaug bounced all the arrows of the lake men off his jeweled hide. Invincible except for the special weakness.
It's a stupid, stupid fight, you win, everyone will die. However, the point is that the players have to think outside the box. For me, imho, that's what E6 is about: thinking through tough problems.
Ever had a group where all they do is smash things? Well, give them something to do they can't smash: trick a dragon. Or rob it. Or something. Combat will be insta-fail, so try something else.
prosfilaes
Adventurer
Wizards have one first level spell. Sorcerers have three. At SR 21, 1 out of 20 magic missiles make it through.
The only advantage I see to E6 is that it's easier for the DM to make problems. You can get sixth level characters to rob a dragon in any system.
3e/3.5e MM monsters are statted for E20. Many have wildly inflated stats for an E6 game. Some can be used as-is, but then the CR5 troll isn't some random troll, he's Grendel, a beast of mythic power. With MM dragons you can mostly use the stats as-is, but change the age and size, eg make a CR 7 young, medium-sized dragon a Very Old, Huge dragon, but use the stats as-is.
fireinthedust
Explorer
Ah. Makes sense, then. However, a Wizard could spend a few gold and have a dozen MM scrolls, given the time and resources.
[/quote]The only advantage I see to E6 is that it's easier for the DM to make problems. You can get sixth level characters to rob a dragon in any system.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. All I'm saying. And sure, you could pick a lower-level Red Dragon and you'd be fine. EPH isn't required material for sure. However, a high level foe it's unlikely they'll ever be able to smash would be okay.
S'Mon: I like the idea of Trolls being Grendel, sure. Though 6th level PCs could tear through that particular example easily: some fire and acid, and then wail on it with Power Attack? Maybe an advanced troll, or a fiendish troll.
The concept also works with other creatures, and I think compliments E6 as well as literary references: the Medusa isn't just *a* but *the*. Especially if it's a short-term campaign, you don't need dozens of these monsters to get the same feel. You're not sharing a world like FR, so killing "the" giant spider Shellob isn't the end of all adventures for everyone else.
Werebat
Explorer
Calling old/powerful dragons "forces of nature" is the way to go here, I think. One thing to remember is that dragons are in fact semi-social, and have their own conflicts amongst themselves. It may well be that most dragons don't survive long past the "adult" stage; only the exceptionally powerful, lucky, and careful ones get to be really, really big. Why? Because the rest are wiped out by OTHER DRAGONS. The ones that get to be beyond the power level of E6 characters to deal with physically tend to be the ones who avoid combat in the first place (not always, but TEND to be). The rootin' tootin' breath a-blazin' Huge Red who terrorizes townships for fun is going to attract the attention of other dragons who are interested in his hoard; some of these (particularly metallics) might even be willing to work together in order to do so. He isn't going to live to be Gargantuan.
Smaug blew a town apart, and could do it again -- but he didn't bother. He was quite content to sleep away most of his time in Lonely Mountain, rolling around on his hoard. Sure, he plundered from time to time, but never frequently enough that it was considered worth the risk of dealing with him. He was relatively smart -- his one mistake being that he took a fortress from dwarves and didn't wipe out the ruling family of the place.
Smaug blew a town apart, and could do it again -- but he didn't bother. He was quite content to sleep away most of his time in Lonely Mountain, rolling around on his hoard. Sure, he plundered from time to time, but never frequently enough that it was considered worth the risk of dealing with him. He was relatively smart -- his one mistake being that he took a fortress from dwarves and didn't wipe out the ruling family of the place.
Similar Threads
