Not Enough Anime in 4e, on to BESM!

What, you are not going to go with Exalted?





But seriously.




Very-strangely-I was thinking about this recently.

4E, maybe with some of the Gama World streamlining, could make a great base for an anime type game. Actually, it could be used for a lot things we may not see.
 

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Tri stat is a neat little system but I haven't played in years. I have an earlier edition of BESM and it wasn't for me but lots of people like it. The 3e books I think came out right as Guardians of Order went under so the print run is small or maybe a bunch are locked away for legal reasons.

Did you consider Mutants and Masterminds with the Mecha and Manga sourcebook? I don't know if it would be what you are looking for but it would be easier to find copies of it.


Don't forget about Mutant's and Mastermind's relationship to BESM.

GoO hired Steve Kenson to work on Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-stat dX / d20). GoO then used Silver Age Sentinels d20 to serve as their framework for BESM d20 (they adjusted the values and reinserted their anime material via copy pasta).

Sometime later, Steve Kenson used his work from Silver Age Sentinels as a start point for creating Mutants and Masterminds. THUS, Mutants and Masterminds could be considered to be the spiritual successor of both Silver Age Sentinels and BESM d20.
 
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Don't forget about Mutant's and Mastermind's relationship to BESM.

GoO hired Steve Kenson to work on Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-stat dX / d20). GoO then used Silver Age Sentinels d20 to serve as their framework for BESM d20 (they adjusted the values and reinserted their anime material via copy pasta).

Sometime later, Steve Kenson used his work from Silver Age Sentinels as a start point for creating Mutants and Masterminds. THUS, Mutants and Masterminds could be considered to be the spiritual successor of both Silver Age Sentinels and BESM d20.

Ummmm..... No. That's not it.

Steve Kenson has stated a number of times that he just did the History of Comic Book section for Silver Age Sentinels. Additionally, it's not like a whole bunch of time passed between SAS and M&M. In fact, you can read the Guardians of Order announcement here at ENWorld:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpg-in...superhero-rpg-launches-august.html#post165501

Scroll down to point B.9:
9. I thought Green Ronin was doing the d20 superhero game?

Yes, Green Ronin is also publishing a d20 superhero game (in Fall 2002) called
Mutants and Masterminds. Steve Kenson, who contributed to Silver Age Sentinels as
well, is the line developer and primary writer for that game. Although Silver Age
Sentinels and Mutants and Masterminds are not directly related products, they will be
compatible through the d20 system. See Green Ronin Publishing: Be Your Own Master for more information.
Which then had this:
This is the kind of goodwill I like to see between companies. I havn't bought a GOO product yet, but I think I'll be picking up both the d20 and Tri-Stat versions of SAS. :)
This doesn't look like good will to me. Green Ronin announced Mutants & Masterminds many months ago. Now these guys, who aren't even a d20 company, are going to bum rush GR and squeeze out their conversion first. That is simply rude and strikes me as a blatant attempt to cash in on d20 by a company that has nothing to do with it.

While I had previously considered getting the Tri Stat version of SAS, now I will be getting neither version.

I've got me a fair amount of love for BESMd20 (which was a slightly reworked SASd20) and feel it really got short-changed; it's not a flawless system but has some pretty solid bits to it. But the games came out at almost the same time. And when you're talking publishing a book (and hardback ones at that), there's too much of a lead-time required to publish.

Further, if the link that you and others suggest was actually present, both GOO and Green Ronin would be in violation of the terms of the OGL, since neither one of them cites the other's work; that's a legal requirement of the license.

Given how excited everyone was about the OGL back then, as well as the fact that it's a requirement (and even if GOO did play a bit fast-and-loose, Green Ronin doesn't appear to have done so), neither of them would have had much reason to not include the declaration of the other's OGC.

The similarities between SAS and 1st ed M&M? Parallel development seems to be the answer. And not a really unreasonable one either; when you're talking about the evolution of stuff (including game systems), you're usually dealing with a fair number of folks that have been thinking about the problem in a similar fashion and from similar backgrounds/starting points. So their solutions are going to tend to look somewhat similar as well.

Steve has been doing supers stuff for a looong time. You can still find stuff he did related to the old Marvel SAGA (card-based supers rpg) which pre-dates d20 by a comfortable margin (1998).

Mark MacKinnon on the other hand was really more about the anime than supers. Tri-Stat was busy evolving along, having new bits grafted onto it with each game. Dominion Tank Police doesn't even have a skill system as I recall. Drifting into supers territory was kinda logical given that effects-based systems are a popular enough way of dealing with both types of games, as well as there being (at the time) a strong desire for a d20-based game, to try and hook into the flood of new gamers. Ultimately this actually didn't benefit GoO, since many d20 fans hated BESMd20/SAS, a chunk of GoO's fans hated that they were ignored by GoO trying to cash in on d20 (and they hated d20), as well as the fact that there's always been (and continues to be) a chunk of gamers that hate _anything_ d20 related regardless of who the company is that produces/produced it.

On topic....

I think 4E _could_ be leveraged for a strong anime-feel game, but it'd take some work. And part of the problem you're likely going to run into is the balance issue; 4E is all about balance and anime-ish stuff... isn't. It doesn't mean you couldn't work with it, but as you pushed more towards one side, you're losing fans of the other.

Plus, the inherent premise is fundamentally different. 4E is about a very particular sort of fighting. While the powers etc might seem "over the top" from some people's perspective, at the end of the day 4E is still about dungeon-crawling. Anime stuff might have lots of fighting (depending on the type of anime), but the _goal_ behind the fighting is different.

D&D is still about killing things and taking their stuff. Editions play around a bit with this, but that's the heart of the game. 3.x narrowed it down, and 4E zeroes in like a laser on this.

Anime... the fights are to entertain and all, but they're in the _service_ of some other goal. Anime starts out first and foremost about story and bends things to fit that.

You try bending D&D rules in the service of "story" and you're going to have a fair chunk of unhappy folks.
 

Oddity...

Well, concerning the similarities between BESM and Mutants and masterminds 2e, especially with focus on Warriors and warlocks and Mecha and manga supplements, something most have gone awfully wrong. Since I own both games, but bought Mutants and masterminds 2e first, I've stumble across some oddities in the two aforementioned supplements, more specifically: Under the sample Mecha, There's a certain "archetype" Mobile armor trooper, now she's fair enough, but her drawback is not... There's no mention of a "conditioned ownership" drawback in this system what-so-ever, but looky there, in BESM 3rd edition among all the Defects, there it lies -.-' and then we have all the "feature"s powers of the racial templates(which is explained in further detail in the book, longevity is easy to fathom) but when we come to the cursed wander, he also got a certain feature power, once again, feature isn't something explained in these rules, but exist in BESM... so maybe there's certain relations between the two games, but I Digress.

On topic note:
I know what you're going through... Haven't had any experience with the games as of yet though, even though I own them, what can I say, I have a lot of spare time, maybe even too much :P But it's only because I'm searching for the exact correct system to implement into my master scheme, but haven't quite come across it yet... But that's something I myself will be asking for in another Thread. I digress once again. To tell you the truth, BESM is perfect for Anime-based games, I guess, and while there's alot to chose from, keep it simple, and even keep it smart, everything is convertable, if you and your GM put your wills to it ;)!
 
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I liked playing BESM for those kind of over-the-top silly anime games at cons. It was a fun system to play, though I played 1e and 2e at cons, but never played 3e.
 


And...now I want to go watch some Record of the Lodoss War. Which is totally anime D&D.

It actually has it's own system of Sword World RPG, which from what I've played is pretty cool, but it is almost essentially "D&D only Japanese." It uses a mix of skill and class based mechanics, and uses - but has a slight twist on - the standard pick-three-classes system and just uses d6's, like you see a lot in jTTGs. It's unfortunately not translated into English (and I don't know of any plans to do so), but if you have someone who can read Japanese, it's pretty good.

As far as BESM/Tristat, it's fun, but very, very easy to accidentally break.

Really, it depends on what kind of game you want to play. "Anime" isn't a genre, after all ;p
 


...
Big Eyes Small Mouth is the now defunct Guardian of Order's quick running rules light anime RPG using a version of the Tri-Stat rules system.

The DM is the only one with the 3e BESM book. Another player has a mechanically incompatible 2e book and I just got the 3e pdf. Unfortunately the hardcovers are running from $130-200 used on Amazon and Ebay even though it is a 2007 book so it looks like that's it for now.

...

You can get the Tri-Stat pdf legally for free here:
Tri-Stat dX Core Rules


Next time I run M&M I'll be trying to make the combat more like 4e. No more 'I grapple, I grapple, I grapple', instead players should have a half-dozen or so equally viable options in combat, with advantages and disadvantages.
That is one of the faults of the M&M grapple system and how it 'dodges' PL.


...

Default BESMd20 is slightly more problematical, but still workable. You can see what it's looking like by checking out the Anime SRD.

Which you can check here:
SYSTEM REFERENCE DOCUMENT


There's one "problem" I think you might bump up against and it's the same in both the Tri-Stat version and the d20 version.

Simply put, the system does not believe in objective balance.

When you see an option that's worth 5 points, there are other options that also cost 5 points which could be either extremely good or crap in comparison to your starting option. This is a _big_ problem for some people, who feel "5 points should _mean_ the same thing period."

M&M for example takes the approach that something which is 5 points is going to be basically equivalent to something else worth 5 points.

Yes, this is why I re-check my the point cost in my modern20/Pathfinder/anime d20 hybrid:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...ng-open-gaming-license-supers-d20-modern.html

And I will add a PL cap, like Fuzion did with the 'Rule of the X' or M&M with the PL limit.

BESMd20 is like the Keanu Reeves of the d20 games, taking an awful lot of crap from everyone. d20 folks hated most of the assumptions the game made (in terms of design) and BESM fans hated it for being a sell-out/cash-in on the d20 craze. Everstone (a 3.0 version of the rules that came out in early 2004) shifted BESM d20 to be more in line with traditional d20, but GoO did essentially no promotion of it and Ebberon came out which completely overwhelmed any chance of it carving a niche for itself.
I think anime d20 had much potential but was under-designed/developed.

Note: An awful lot of what I wrote above is personal opinion. That means some folks might have a very different perspective on it than I do.
I think you hit it pretty good.
 

...

Further, if the link that you and others suggest was actually present, both GOO and Green Ronin would be in violation of the terms of the OGL, since neither one of them cites the other's work; that's a legal requirement of the license.

Given how excited everyone was about the OGL back then, as well as the fact that it's a requirement (and even if GOO did play a bit fast-and-loose, Green Ronin doesn't appear to have done so), neither of them would have had much reason to not include the declaration of the other's OGC.

The similarities between SAS and 1st ed M&M? Parallel development seems to be the answer. And not a really unreasonable one either; when you're talking about the evolution of stuff (including game systems), you're usually dealing with a fair number of folks that have been thinking about the problem in a similar fashion and from similar backgrounds/starting points. So their solutions are going to tend to look somewhat similar as well.

Steve has been doing supers stuff for a looong time. You can still find stuff he did related to the old Marvel SAGA (card-based supers rpg) which pre-dates d20 by a comfortable margin (1998).
...


Page 253 M&M 2nd edition Core book in the OGL
15. COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
System Reference Document, Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.,
Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, based on original
material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
Modern System Reference Document, Copyright 2002-2004, Wizards of
the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles
Ryan, Eric Cagle, David Noonan, Stan!, Christopher Perkins, Rodney
Thompson, and JD Wiker, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte
Cook, Skip Williams, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John
Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Wiker.
Mutants & Masterminds, Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing; Author
Steve Kenson.
Advanced Player’s Manual, Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing:
Author Skip Williams.
Silver Age Sentinels d20, Copyright 2002, Guardians of Order, Inc.; Authors
Stephen Kenson, Mark C. Mackinnon, Jeff Mackintosh, Jesse Scoble.

Mutants & Masterminds, Second Edition, Copyright 2005, Green Ronin
Publishing; Author Steve Kenson.
BBM

And if Mr Kenson hadn't designed anything in SAS d20, he took enough to mention it in the OGL of his work.
 

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