Help me with Homebrew Classes - Meta Thread

[Celebrim]

So, I've lost my beloved house rules forum, and now I'm stuck with the rest of you and you are stuck with me.

I don't normally post my house rules, but I'd like some feed back on them from people with wider experience with 3.X, because they are getting close to being finalized.

What I'd like to do is get all my classes within a tier or two of each other, because I'm intrigued by the whole 'tier' concept. See here if you haven't read about it yet. The most important point is that it describes the problem in core, which is especially apparant beginning at around 9th level and certainly by 11th level.

These are the PC classes in use in my game, and where I think that they shake out:

Tier 2: Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer
Tier 3: Bard, Champion, Shaman (Green Ronin)
Tier 4: Akashic (Arcana Unearthed), Fanatic, Fighter, Feyborne, Explorer, Hunter, Rogue

Classes in italics are homebrew. The rest of the classes are as described with tweaks intended to move them out of their normal tier (nerfing Cleric, boosting Fighter, for example). But I may have overestimated my success, which is one possible topic of discussion.

Over the next few days I hope to post the rules for my homebrew classes in other threads so people can review them, and discuss here mainly questions like: "What is necessary to actually to bump Cleric from Tier 1, down to Tier 2?" and "Have the existing changes I've made to the class, rules, and spells accomplished that goal?".
Links to Classes
Champion
Explorer
Fighter

 

[Sekhmet]

Welcome to this part of the forum, and I'm sure Dandu will be able to help with moving Wizards down to Tier 2.

Some options for moving Clerics down a tier is to take a look at what the Favored Soul offers. A larger number of casts per day, but a smaller list to pull it from; thats really the only difference.
What effectively happens is that it forces the Cleric to choose his spells very carefully, since they will never change, and it puts them into a niche that they can fill; EITHER buffing, healing, or combat, he can't choose all three like he usually could.

Wizards move to tier 2 by becoming Sorcerers. Again, more spells to cast each day, but a much narrower grasp of magic than a Wizard has.

Clerics and Wizards get their power over Favored Souls and Sorcerers because they have access to EVERY spell, EVERY day. If they know they're going up against Ogres, they prepare for Ogres.
A Sorcerer/Favored Soul has to imagine what they're likely to come up against throughout their entire career, so they will not be as capable of preparing for that abrupt plane shift into the Elemental Plane of Fire.


Those are obviously just my observations on the classes, and the "Tier" system of grading, but I hope they help you in some way, however slight.

Again. Welcome to this forum.

 

[Celebrim]

Part 1: Tier 1

Ok, so the biggest problem in core is that Wizards, Clerics, and Druids outstrip the other classes sometimes by a very considerable amount.

Druids are easy in my case. I don't like thier flavor, and they don't meet my definition of a base class, so they are just gone - replaced by the much less versital Shaman (Green Ronin) with some minor tweaking. Even if I were to keep them, they'd probably get a spell casting progression similar to the Bard.

That leaves Wizards and Clerics. The key to these two classes is that just looking at the class entry, you wouldn't be that impressed. All the power of these two classes is pretty much in the spells. So, if we address the spells in the game, we address the classes.

Spells have been addressed thusly:

1) You do not add the level of the spell to determine the spell's DC: In play, this has been absolutely huge. Right off the bat everything has at least a 5% better chance of passing its saving throw, and the bigger and more powerful spells may have bigger and more powerful effects but they are no harder to resist. (Flavor wise, you may think of this as spellcaster can put more power into weaker spells, and comes to the casting with greater experience.)
2) There is no 'Combat Casting': If you are casting while threatened, most spells will provoke an AoO. You can't avoid AoO simply by making a Concentration check with a minor DC. This accentuates the difficulties caster have in melee.
3) If you take a 5' step out of a threatened zone, so that you no longer threaten the target you draw an AoO: In practice, this isn't as huge of a problem as it seems - as simply equiping yourself with a staff gets you out of jeopardy against anything without reach - but it does further complicate the difficulty a caster has in melee and further increase the need for the caster for a meat shield (conjured or allies).
4) Spell Range is Reduced: Medium range is now 50' + 10'/caster level. Long range is now 100'+20'/caster level. This is primarily to make sure that casters remain in the range of missile weapons and in many cases, charge attacks. You can no longer easily hang out several hundred yards from a fight.
5) Take the weaker of the 3.0 or 3.5 version of the spell: 3.5 tried to fix a few of 3.0's broken spells (Harm and Haste, chiefly). But it also broke more spells than it fixed. Use whatever version of the spell is weakest.
6) Avoid Non-Core Spells: I'm sure quite a few non-core spells are perfectly balanced. But for the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that we are limited to core.
7) Nerf Problimatic Spells: Spells shouldn't cause instant death. Spells generally shouldn't grant absolute immunity (virtual immunity to a given CR is ok). Whenever possible, spells that do something a skill does, instead of just doing it with no chance of failure give some limited short term boost to skill or the equivalent. Spells that are save or die take you to negative hit points. Force cage, wall of force, etc. are subject to physical damage just like other walls. Spells that cause save or suck below 6th level have short durations or are resistable over time. Summoning spells don't let you summon things iwth higher CR than you have. Shapechanging spells don't generally let you increase CON or hit points. Divinitions require a skill check to succeed. Anything else is up for review. The goal is to keep similar breadth and utility, especially out of combat, while reducing the gap in utility between the spell casters and non-spellcasters from both directions.

So, that's spells generally. The Cleric however is still a bit overpowered. So the following changes to the Cleric:

1) Cleric spells per day progression starts at '0+1' rather than '1+1'.
2) Clerics have a list of known spells, similar to every other class but the Wizard (for which the DM has considerable sway and influence over the availability of spells, as well as other RP constraints such as the need for books and components). This is particularly important for the Cleric if you in any way depart from core, because otherwise the Cleric can prepare whatever he expects to need, much like as if a Wizard knew every spell.

Question #1: With these changes, is it reasonable that Cleric and Wizard move from Tier 1 to Tier 2? In my experience they seem to do the trick or would do the trick, but I don't know high level play in 3e very well at all.

 

[Celebrim]

Question #2: Shaman (Green Ronin) is clearly weaker in the 'heroic' tier than any of the core full spellcasting classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer). However, it is also clear to me that at higher levels many of its weaknesses get addressed as it adds more and more totems and gets more and more access through them to 'the good stuff'. Has anyone experience with the Green Ronin shaman at high levels? If so, in your opinion, using core spells and rules is the Shaman in fact Tier 2 or even Tier 1?

 

[Sekhmet]

1) You do not add the level of the spell to determine the spell's DC: In play, this has been absolutely huge. Right off the bat everything has at least a 5% better chance of passing its saving throw, and the bigger and more powerful spells may have bigger and more powerful effects but they are no harder to resist. (Flavor wise, you may think of this as spellcaster can put more power into weaker spells, and comes to the casting with greater experience.)

In effect, this creates a massive difference at the end game, when SR and saving throws become high enough that the Wizard can have a hard time landing spells in the first place. While lower and mid level Wizards would see their spells resisted slightly more often, higher level play would be extremely difficult for casters, who would start casting SR:No and non-save spells instead. This effectively reduces the number of offensive capabilities of a Wizard.

2) There is no 'Combat Casting': If you are casting while threatened, most spells will provoke an AoO. You can't avoid AoO simply by making a Concentration check with a minor DC. This accentuates the difficulties caster have in melee.

3) If you take a 5' step out of a threatened zone, so that you no longer threaten the target you draw an AoO: In practice, this isn't as huge of a problem as it seems - as simply equiping yourself with a staff gets you out of jeopardy against anything without reach - but it does further complicate the difficulty a caster has in melee and further increase the need for the caster for a meat shield (conjured or allies).

Removing "Casting Defensively" (Not Combat Casting) has no bearing on the mid->high level Wizard. Fly removes the need for it.

4) Spell Range is Reduced: Medium range is now 50' + 10'/caster level. Long range is now 100'+20'/caster level. This is primarily to make sure that casters remain in the range of missile weapons and in many cases, charge attacks. You can no longer easily hang out several hundred yards from a fight.

Another null factor with the very simple use of Fly. This does make it harder for lower level Wizards to be of any real use in combat. Maybe bump them up an HD or allow light armor to help them out in early levels.

5) Take the weaker of the 3.0 or 3.5 version of the spell: 3.5 tried to fix a few of 3.0's broken spells (Harm and Haste, chiefly). But it also broke more spells than it fixed. Use whatever version of the spell is weakest.

3.5 fixed a lot of very buggy spells, giving them their intended use, whether that makes it stronger or weaker should not be relevant. What should be looked at is the change itself.
Each spell needs careful consideration on which version is "weaker", and if the "weaker" version is even useful.

7) Nerf Problimatic Spells: Spells shouldn't cause instant death. Spells generally shouldn't grant absolute immunity (virtual immunity to a given CR is ok). Whenever possible, spells that do something a skill does, instead of just doing it with no chance of failure give some limited short term boost to skill or the equivalent. Spells that are save or die take you to negative hit points. Force cage, wall of force, etc. are subject to physical damage just like other walls. Spells that cause save or suck below 6th level have short durations or are resistable over time. Summoning spells don't let you summon things iwth higher CR than you have...

Woah. Large block.
Spells that cause instant death generally have low saves, especially with Rule 1 coming in to play. I think this is an unnecessary edit,
Spells that grant immunity to specific things are useful only 1 in 10 situations, which means a Wizard/Cleric is generally unable to foresee the need, and toss the spell to the side. This edit is a nerf to Sorcerers/Favored Souls more than Wizards/Clerics.
Spells that perform skills are a valuable part of the Wizard arsenal, the intended nerf would make the adventuring Wizard rely on his party more. I would recommend allowing these spells to effect other players (range: touch), so they could still retain their intended use, but making it so that the Wizard can't do it all himself.
How much HP/hardness would a Wall of Force/Forcecage have? These two numbers are vitally important to know before suggesting that nerf, as they could make the spells effectively useless when compared to other Wall spells.
The summoning "nerf?" has no effect on gameplay that I can think of. I just looked up the useful summons, and they never have more CR than you do at the level you can cast it. The nerf to Planar Binding type spells is unnecessary, as Rule 1 renders them all-but-useless, and I can see you would immediately murder a player who attempted to cheese it.

Question #1: With these changes, is it reasonable that Cleric and Wizard move from Tier 1 to Tier 2? In my experience they seem to do the trick or would do the trick, but I don't know high level play in 3e very well at all.

These changes make Favored Souls stronger than Clerics (more spells per day with a similar list of spells known).
They would reduce Wizards to Tier 2, and Clerics, Sorcerers, and Favoured Souls might become Tier 3, whereas the Tier 3 casters would likely retain their position.

 

[Celebrim]

They would reduce Wizards to Tier 2, and Clerics, Sorcerers, and Favoured Souls might become Tier 3, whereas the Tier 3 casters would likely retain their position.

That's precisely what I want to hear. The end goal would be to get everyone into tier 2 or 3. I'm just not sure I can get there.

I'm not to worried about Favored Souls or the like. I don't play with them.

In effect, this creates a massive difference at the end game, when SR and saving throws become high enough that the Wizard can have a hard time landing spells in the first place.

This is exactly the idea. This is what I remember from 1e.

Removing "Casting Defensively" (Not Combat Casting) has no bearing on the mid->high level Wizard. Fly removes the need for it.

Another null factor with the very simple use of Fly.

Once you reach high level play, if the target can't fly or deal with flying, it probably isn't worth it's CR.

This does make it harder for lower level Wizards to be of any real use in combat. Maybe bump them up an HD or allow light armor to help them out in early levels.

I'm not at all worried about the balance of the game before level 9. In fact, I can state confidently that from level 1 to 8, every class is tier 3. It's almost impossible however to stay true to D&D and not eventually get some gap in versitility between the spellcasters and noncasters.

3.5 fixed a lot of very buggy spells, giving them their intended use, whether that makes it stronger or weaker should not be relevant. What should be looked at is the change itself. Each spell needs careful consideration on which version is "weaker", and if the "weaker" version is even useful.

This is true enough. Let's assume for the moment that I've done so. I was mostly speaking about cases like 'Alter Self' or 'Ray of Enfeeblement' were the 3.0 spell was still fairly useful ('Alter Self' was for example the first access to flight), but which became breakable in 3.5.

Spells that cause instant death generally have low saves, especially with Rule 1 coming in to play. I think this is an unnecessary edit.

It could be. But I don't like instant death no succor except a cleric with raise dead for other reasons than balance.

Spells that grant immunity to specific things are useful only 1 in 10 situations, which means a Wizard/Cleric is generally unable to foresee the need, and toss the spell to the side. This edit is a nerf to Sorcerers/Favored Souls more than Wizards/Clerics.

Especially at high level play, in 3.5 save DC's outstrip most save bonuses (for bad saves at least), making it difficult or impossible to make saves. It is therefore essential to be walking around at all times with Death Ward, Mind Blank, and Freedom of Action. Reduced save DC's greatly reduce the need for absolute immunities, but not necessarily the utility of getting out of predictable jams.

Spells that perform skills are a valuable part of the Wizard arsenal, the intended nerf would make the adventuring Wizard rely on his party more. I would recommend allowing these spells to effect other players (range: touch), so they could still retain their intended use, but making it so that the Wizard can't do it all himself.

Divination spells (some core, some homebrew) tend to perform this function, but you seem to get the idea.

How much HP/hardness would a Wall of Force/Forcecage have?

Enough that they would be vertibly unbreakable, but not absolutely immune. The general rule is, "The demigod of X shouldn't need a special entry explaining how he can overcome certain absolute immunities." I'd be looking at something like DR 2*caster level/- and hit points 10*caster level. Even breakable, a wall of force can do things that other walls can't - stop Xorn, ghosts, etc. I'm willing to play with the spell, the main thing is that it shouldn't completely shut down all builds of fighter.

The summoning "nerf?" has no effect on gameplay that I can think of. I just looked up the useful summons, and they never have more CR than you do at the level you can cast it.

Gate is what I'm thinking of here. The Planar Binding spells are fine as written and aren't in fact nerfed in my rules in anyway other than rule #1.

 

[Sekhmet]

This is exactly the idea. This is what I remember from 1e.

When I played 1e, my most memorable player was a Cleric that lost her arm during a fight with Hill Giants throwing rocks down a steep hill at us.
Our Wizard was, essentially, a God Among Men. I don't recall more than a handful of instances where a monster made a saving throw (he didn't play offensively, he played a controller/debilitatator), and when they did, our entire party was simultaneously confused and seriously concerned.

It was kind of like the Lord of the Rings trilogy. We were hobbits, he was Gandalf.

Once you reach high level play, if the target can't fly or deal with flying, it probably isn't worth it's CR.

It isn't so much being able to fly/deal with flying that makes it such a useful spell (especially for casters), it's the ability to get away from melee and therefor never accrue AoO's.

Enough that they would be vertibly unbreakable, but not absolutely immune. The general rule is, "The demigod of X shouldn't need a special entry explaining how he can overcome certain absolute immunities." I'd be looking at something like DR 2*caster level/- and hit points 10*caster level. Even breakable, a wall of force can do things that other walls can't - stop Xorn, ghosts, etc. I'm willing to play with the spell, the main thing is that it shouldn't completely shut down all builds of fighter.

I'd consider 3*CL. Wall of Force (lv5) takes a 9th level Wizard to cast, and your idea would put it at DR 18 and 90HP. At 9th level, I can't think of a decent class that can't murder it in a few rounds; making the spell only marginally useful at any point, and especially useless as a means of defending your base of operations.
Another concern is that, at 20th level, DR 40 is also easy to overcome.

Also, all builds of Fighter can hang on to a Rod of Cancellation. They're relatively cheap.

Gate is what I'm thinking of here. The Planar Binding spells are fine as written and aren't in fact nerfed in my rules in anyway other than rule #1.

Planar Binding can be cheesed to Hell and back.
Gate, too, regardless of your CR/HD nerf.

However, I don't find it to be a particularly powerful spell outside of the cheese. Summoning a Pitfiend to help for 17 rounds is nice and all. It's real strength is the long-term contract, which you, as the DM, can set the payment for. That payment should reflect the cost of the task, the cost of the demon's pride, and the cost of the demon's greed, which is all-too-often too much for a player to pay.

 

[Celebrim]

Our Wizard was, essentially, a God Among Men. I don't recall more than a handful of instances where a monster made a saving throw (he didn't play offensively, he played a controller/debilitatator), and when they did, our entire party was simultaneously confused and seriously concerned.

That sounds like a DM problem. By 10th level when M-U's really came into their own, most things intended to be serious challenges save as at least 12th level fighters and many as high as 19th level fighters. (Quicklings are even worse, saving as 19th level clerics.) And many also have spell resistance. A 12th level fighter's worst save is spells, but even then he saves 55% of the time. So at least half of all opponent's should make the save. The really tough things, like ancient red dragons, don't fail a save on anything but a 5 or less (to say nothing of later great wyrms, or monsters with magic items)

In 1e, the fact that your foe was fairly likely to save and ruin your spell meant that fireball and similar spells were king. Saves might have been pretty decent, but hit points were minimal by today's standard on both sides of the DM screen. Direct damage spells weren't dice capped and your opponents had d8 HD and usually no bonus hit points (no constitution score). As a result, you could cripple or kill most things with direct damage even if they made their saving throw.

The problem for a 1e M-U was that they were pretty much always one bad round away from death. You'd be lucky to have 30 h.p. at 10th level, and you were dead at 0.

it's the ability to get away from melee and therefor never accrue AoO's.

Many fliers will simply melee or grapple you in the air, and take advantage of the fact that you are now alone to isolate you from your melee protection. Those that don't will likely have missile attacks, and you've just negated your cover bonus and/or the penalty for firing into melee. I find that flight is fairly suicidal without prior precautions unless you are dealing with a single 'brute' with poor ability to lose a sticky melee type (or perhaps deal with flight at all).

Planar Binding can be cheesed to Hell and back.

Only with a bad DM. The worst abuse of Planar Binding is that you can often transform it into one or more equivalent or higher level spells, and in particular divine spells the wizard wouldn't normally have access to.

Gate, too, regardless of your CR/HD nerf.

Planatar ally at level 17 is alot less problimatic than Solar ally.

It's real strength is the long-term contract, which you, as the DM, can set the payment for.

Yes, and hense, never cheesy.

 

[Sekhmet]

I could get into days of arguments about the amazingness of 1e/AD&D MU's, but it would quickly derail the thread topic, I will just say that having low saves didn't save you from spells that do not take effect on you, but indirectly cause your massive and permanent loss of life.

Your issue with Fly and AoO's does not take into consideration withdrawing.
A midair grapple is an amusing idea. I've yet to meet a fellow Wizard that doesn't prepare for grapples specifically, and in mid-air, that would spell immediate and massive death for most humanoids.

Planar Binding's worst abuse is probably to accrue an unlimited number of Wishes at no XP or material cost, which is a DM's worst nightmare when you use it specifically as stated in the PHB.

And as you pointed out, when the DM sets the payment, having the ability to summon a CR40 or less Outsider is never overpowered.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

2) Clerics have a list of known spells, similar to every other class but the Wizard (for which the DM has considerable sway and influence over the availability of spells, as well as other RP constraints such as the need for books and components). This is particularly important for the Cleric if you in any way depart from core, because otherwise the Cleric can prepare whatever he expects to need, much like as if a Wizard knew every spell.

Making the cleric a limited-list caster brings them too close to the favored soul and sorcerer, I think. Instead of doing that, I'd implement an adaptation of the spheres system from 2e:

1) Every cleric picks three domains rather than two (deities may need to be given more domains to ensure cleric variety), choosing one of them to be his major domain, one to be his moderate domain, and one to be his minor domain.

2) Instead of gaining access to every cleric spell on his list, a cleric can only access spells thematically linked to his domains; some will be more obvious than others--Fire is easy, for instance, War not so much--and you might want to restrict the broader domains like Protection or Knowledge to moderate or minor status. He can prepare any spell related to his major domain, spells of 6th level or lower related to his moderate domain, and spells of 3rd level or lower related to his minor domain.

3) Domain slots are removed; domain spells are added to the cleric's list at the appropriate levels instead of being restricted to domain slots. Since this would effectively make the cleric's spells/day start at "1+0" you wouldn't need to use the change #1 to clerics you mentioned above with this version.

3) Instead of the cleric spontaneously curing or inflicting, the cleric can spontaneously cast his domain spells.

[Optional]
4) Since the removal of spontaneous curing/inflicting removes the "channeling positive/negative energy" rationale for every cleric getting Turn Undead, you might want to either (A) change it to a generic "Channel Energy" feature that's used to fuel domain powers, which has the advantage of possibly shoring up the weaker domain powers by making them usable more often and limiting the more powerful ones by costing many channel uses to activate, or (B) change it to a generic "Turn Heathen" feature that turns/rebukes certain creatures based on the domain chosen kind of like the elemental domains already do, the problem with this being that some domains wouldn't have obvious targets for this version.