Runepriests

The Runepriest is sort of the weapon-using cousin of the Invoker. As both of them both wield the tools and language of the Gods. Invokers use the spoken part of the Language Primeval while the Runepriests use the handwriting of the Language Primeval.

But despite all this I don't see why Runepriests couldn't be just a subclass of another class.
 

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The Runepriest is sort of the weapon-using cousin of the Invoker. As both of them both wield the tools and language of the Gods. Invokers use the spoken part of the Language Primeval while the Runepriests use the handwriting of the Language Primeval.

But despite all this I don't see why Runepriests couldn't be just a subclass of another class.
Thematically they could be.

Mechanically, trying to mesh the whole runic thing into a non-runic class would be harder than meshing Full Discipline into another class, and I don't see anyone saying that Monk should be a sub-class of rogue.
 
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Thematically they could be.

Mechanically, trying to mesh the whole runic thing into a non-runic class would be harder than meshing Full Discipline into another class, and I don't see anyone saying that Monk should be a sub-class of rogue.
You could just as easily say the same thing about integrating a striker mechanic in a defender class, and yet, we have the Slayer. You could say the same thing about giving control effects to a ranged weapon class, and yet, Hunters do okay as Rangers.

Honestly, I think there are places that some of the other classes should have gone, and these points have been raised before.

For example, I think that Avenger should have been a Paladin build and Invoker should have been a Cleric build. I can get behind the idea of Sorcerer as Wizard build, and even Warlock and Swordmage being lumped in there. You might want to rename the group to "Magic User" or something, but the idea of doing it this way is not totally "out there".

Basically, if you're using Power Sources, why not just lump classes by power source (i.e. as builds of a given power source)?

Warriors use the Martial power source. Fighters, Rogues, Thieves, Knights, Slayers, and Warlords are all Warriors.

Magic Users tap into the Arcane power source. Wizards, Mages, Bards, Sorcerers, Artificers, and Warlocks are all Magic Users.

Divine Agents channel the Divine power source. Clerics, Avengers, Paladins, Warpriests, Runepriests, and Invokers are all Divine Agents.

Primals all embody the Primal power source. Barbarians, Druids, Shamans, Rangers, and Wardens are all Primals.

You could even argue that many, if not most classes have two power sources, as some of the E-classes do. Perhaps Rogues and Thieves are Martial and Shadow. Bards could be Arcane and Martial, some Rangers are already Martial and Primal.

Four power sources, like the 4 classical elements; and where they combine, they create new power sources that mix and match the varying strengths and weaknesses inherent to the power sources.

Because we're so late into 4e at this point, there are significant logistical issues with doing it this way, but it is food for thought.
 
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Well, runes were the province of Odin, to be honest. I associate "runepriests" with the runecasters of Norse lore.
I do, too. That's why I 'mostly' like the class's flavour. There's only one flaw: It should not be a divine class! These aren't priests at all, they are runecasters, i.e. a kind of magicians.

Imho, it should either be arcane or use its own, distinct power source (rune magic). That would go a great way to make it seem less like a cleric variant.

What the Runepriest class also needs is a campaign setting that gives them a distinct purpose and makes them a central piece of the setting. They're to a Norse culture/setting what the Artificers are to Eberron. Without being rooted in 'their' setting they're too niche to be important. They just get lost in the maelstrom of the kitchen sink.
 

What the Runepriest class also needs is a campaign setting that gives them a distinct purpose and makes them a central piece of the setting. They're to a Norse culture/setting what the Artificers are to Eberron. Without being rooted in 'their' setting they're too niche to be important. They just get lost in the maelstrom of the kitchen sink.

I agree with this. Introducing bizarre classes and races without any solid context makes them much less likely to catch on. Ideally, they would be introduced with some presence in a novel, an adventure, and a fluff book. Give people examples to love and examples to hate rather than just drop it in their lap and stare at them waiting for magic to happen.
 

Ideally, they would be introduced with some presence in a novel, an adventure, and a fluff book. Give people examples to love and examples to hate rather than just drop it in their lap and stare at them waiting for magic to happen.

Well, Runecutter's Ruin features a runepriest. :p

As for the class itself, I personally love my dwarven wrathful hammer runepriest, though to be fair, he only hit level 3 at the end of the last session. So far, in our party consisting of fighter, pally, ranger, mage (charm) and myself, he has been highly effective. He is almost on par with the ranger in terms of damage (though I think that has as much to do with feat/power choice as anything), and he provides enough bonuses and healing to keep the party going.

That being said, I do agree that there are plenty of problems with the class:

The Name: I think a lot of people focus on the "priest" part of the class name and that has a lead to a lot of comparisons to the cleric. Add to the fact that they get auto-training in religion (despite no other reason to boost Int) and it becomes even easier to relate them to the cleric. Simply calling them runelords, runecasters, runemasters, etc. may have eliminated a lot of this discussion.

The Feats: I too agree that the rune feats are bad (to an extent). IF you take most/all of them, they are pretty good. Heck, even rune of eloquence will essentially make you trained + focused on those skills if you take them all. The problem with the feats though is that by themselves, they really don't do anything. Compare this to any other class based feats and I think they'll come out pretty poor. Sure, adding THP to your rune of mending is nice, but you have to wait until at least level 4 before you get even a decent amount of THPs (and that assumes you are not taking Expertise, DWT/Proficiency, or an armor prof., etc. Personally, I haven't decided whether or not I'll take them. In my mind, a feat should be useful the moment you take it, rather than having to wait for 2, 4, 6 or even more levels for the feat to become useful. Adding a single THP to your rune of mending really doesn't do much, even if adding 4 - 8 later on will. This is particularly problematic for those of us who play at most every other week for 4 hours at a time, meaning that we're talking about waiting perhaps 6 months or more before the feat really becomes decent. Perhaps if the feats were more along the lines of "Add 3 + rune feats, max X" they'd be more useful.

The Fiddly Bits: Personally, I don't mind this. The tactician in me loves being able to find the right bonus at the right time. However, it is difficult to keep track of all of it without the use of cards, markers, tents, etc. I figured that out right away fortunately but its still an issue. Doesn't make the class any less effective, but it does likely turn it off to a number of players. The other side effect of this is that if the player of the runepriest happens to miss a session, it may be really difficult for another player to run it by proxy. "I swing my Mordenkrad!" became the default line when I missed a session.

Ritual Caster: I'm not convinced that they need ritual casting to be a good choice. However, I do think that allowing them to cast Enchant Magic Item and/or Disenchant would fit very well into the theme of the class, without stepping on the toes of the classes that get ritual caster for free. Of course, with the Essentials version of item distribution/creation, this would now be less of an issue as Enchant is a lot less useful now.

Those problems aside, I do think that the class brings a lot to the table. Good damage, plus good buffing/debuffing plus excellent versatility is a great combination in my book. Even the poor class-specific feat selection has its own "appeal". Given how tight feat slots often are, the lack of good class based feats (assuming you don't go nearly all in) opens the door for a lot of other feats that might not otherwise get as much attention. I'm seriously considering taking "Shield the Fallen" for instance which I have yet to see another dwarf take in any game. Situational feats often tend to be less optimal because there are a sufficient number of good all around feats to take, but I think there is more possibility here with the runepriest. Of course, this doesn't make up for the poor design in the class feats to begin with.

The other problems (lack of pp's, powers, etc.) are really more an issue with the lack of supplements than the class itself. Compare the number of powers to the number available to the fighter when PHB1 first came out. Simply supporting the class will go a long way toward making the class better and more popular. Another Mastery option would be great, another PP, etc. In my mind, there isn't anything wrong for the most part with the actual powers and pp's, available now, just that by comparison to other classes, they are lacking in options by virtue of being late to the game and not having had any additional support thrown their way.

All in all, I do think its a great class mechanically that just needs some love in order to really shine. It may not have a great theme for some people (and again, putting "priest" in the class name I think is contributing to this), but frankly 4e suffers from lack of flavor in many parts of the game. Even the 4e cleric doesn't really feel like the "old school" D&D cleric imo. The 4e cleric really shouldn't be up front all that much (though I have yet to see a warpriest in action). Strength clerics just were not good enough (imo) to thrive up front and if you weren't Str-based, you had no business being up front to begin with. At the end of the day, I really hope I get to keep playing my runpriest because he is a blast to play. The only thing that seems likely to stop that is death or the campaign fizzling.
 

The Name: I think a lot of people focus on the "priest" part of the class name and that has a lead to a lot of comparisons to the cleric. Add to the fact that they get auto-training in religion (despite no other reason to boost Int) and it becomes even easier to relate them to the cleric. Simply calling them runelords, runecasters, runemasters, etc. may have eliminated a lot of this discussion.

It's deeper than that, though.

There's the name.

There's the divine power source.

There's the Str/Wis/Con focus.

There's the Leader role (and the attendant buffs).

There's the "heavy armor, simple weapon" equipment set.

The Warpriest looks almost identical.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and floats like a duck....there's a chance it is some species of toad undergoing convergent evolution, but that really doesn't matter to anyone except for duck and toad experts.

They're much more similar to each other than, say, the Sentinel is to the PHB2 Druid, or the Slayer is to the PHB fighter.

This isn't coming out of a lack of understanding or a confusion. It's not the name (the name isn't too shabby by 4e standards).

This is coming because finding the difference between a cleric and a runepriest is difficult for the casual observer.

The fiddly bits are different, and this may even lead to slightly different play styles (runepriests emphasizing versatility of destruction/creation, forex), but it's way too subtle to make the distinction at such a large level as "class," since class largely immutably defines your character's options for the entire time you play them.

I mean, you know the complaint that the Runepriest isn't well supported?

Imagine if it was a Cleric build. Then, you could take Cleric powers instead of "runepriest" powers. You could take cleric feats instead of largely sub-par "rune" feats. You could take advantage of all of the expansions that the Cleric has had so far.

I don't really understand what is gained in making it a separate class. It walls up all of its goodies inside a tower that only a few people will ever enter. I get that when the Runepriest was designed, it was pre-essentials, and perhaps making diverse builds was taboo over at WotC. But what the runepriest (and seeker, and perhaps ardent) really wants is to be part of something bigger, instead of off in their own little corners, doing things that few people care about.

Even if it had remarkable feat selections and intuitive power usage and robust Dragon support, this would not help its prospects for seeing the light of day at anyone's table. It is the ythrak of character classes. Or, perhaps more pointedly, the quasit. To most folks, it looks like a pallette swap, a clone, an also-ran. The differences are too subtle to care about.

Now, if the runepriest powers were cleric powers, if the class features were build-related instead of class related....
 
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It's deeper than that, though.

Now, if the runepriest powers were cleric powers, if the class features were build-related instead of class related....

Not really, No.
What you would end up with is another unsupported build option. See Beastmaster Rangers. How many new Beast powers have come around since they were released?
The Runepriests major functions are all defined by its powers. As a subset of Cleric it gets exactly 0 extra power options that enhance its Rune build, none of them have runic keywords. Again, exactly like a Beastmaster. A PC would be better off picking other builds powers and using the whole rune-option of the class as nothing more than an always on buff.

The Runepriest really needs to be completed. Its still a playtest class in the mechanics department.
Add Ritual Casting
Add an out-of-combat healing boost ala Bards Song of Rest
Add Channel Divinity. If the class is really Divine, it should have the defining feature of the Divine power source. This is where the Rune feat options should have resided from the start, as CD powers.

A third build wouldnt hurt either. Probably INT secondary with ranged powers and SPEAR focused.
 

It would be interesting to find out how many runepriest magazine proposals have been sent WotC's way. Have there just not been many people putting out good proposals, or has WotC been ignoring a pile of them?
 

What you would end up with is another unsupported build option. See Beastmaster Rangers. How many new Beast powers have come around since they were released?

How many do you really need? Between beast powers and other ranger options, it feels pretty robust to me. Admittedly, my play experience with a beastmaster ranger was short, but I didn't exactly struggle for options.

The Runepriests major functions are all defined by its powers. As a subset of Cleric it gets exactly 0 extra power options that enhance its Rune build, none of them have runic keywords. Again, exactly like a Beastmaster. A PC would be better off picking other builds powers and using the whole rune-option of the class as nothing more than an always on buff.

Again, how many do you really need? The power options enhance other things that the Runepriest currently lacks support for (such as leader role and melee specialization and healing).
 

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