help with players being late, unprepared, etc

[Goonalan]

fantastic response goonalan....exactly what i needed to hear. i dont think i have any "nutters" in my group other than me of course, and after hearing your story i dont think i want one. the love poem and battle song and what not are kinda over the top for the game that i run. i do require any new player that joins our fray to write up a back story for their character. this can be as extensive or as short as they like, but it does force them to invest a little time into their character.

anyway, i think im investing all this time into my game because i CHOOSE to like you said, but then i get a little miffed when my players dont want to invest the same amount of time. im not sure how to fix this other than for me just to chill. it will be tough but i'll figure it out. maybe my players will want to invest more as they continue to play (they are new to the game after all). im hoping thats the case.

Not a problem, been there, however don't rule out killing one of the players as a warning to the other two (I mean in real life of course), I've found this method also serves as a 'wake up call'.

Don't pick now which one you're going to take out- let the dice decide, first '20' in game and straight between the eyes, tried-and-tested, my friend- I've been teaching in Higher Education for a good long while, cull one early and what you lose in student retention you more than make up for in overall achievement.

Back to reality though for a moment, also tray to spark an interest, not teaching you to suck eggs but week by week I try to make sure the players get 20 minutes (or more) of unexpected whimsy, some examples from my present campaign-

Jeb, Gith Swordmage, is going on a date with a lady in Fallcrest- dinner at the Silver Unicorn Inn, we'll RP this, with me doing her voice, Jeb has to deliver at least four killer one-liners, his best pick-up lines. This is a Skill Challenge- sorta.

Last week Drake, 19 year old Pacifist Human Priest of Pelor had to deliver a sermon to the masses at the House of the Sun- 200 words, written up and delivered with sincerity- another Skill Challenge.

Jeb (again) and Neb, Tiefling Wizard want to join the Wizards Guild- they have a timed exam- 30 questions in 30 minutes, they are only allowed to have the next question when they've answered the first- mini game.

The whole gang of PCs wandered in to the Temple of the Moon (Sehanine) during the children's choir practice, they were made to hum, la-la-la or otherwise make noises in-tune while the other PCs guessed what tunes they were doing (badly), another Skill Challenge.

We've also done Drinking Competitions in which the players have had to perform various forfeits (not drinking you understand), things like standing on one leg and touching their nose. star-jumps, repeating tongue-twisters etc.

Don't get me wrong we do plenty of combat (it's 4e afterall) but even then I try to keep something up my sleeve, so we've had 'Splat the Rat' mini-games, multiple encounters at once in which the PCs have to kill one guy (the leader) or else face an army of foes, timed encounters as the building collapses etc.

As I say try to make one event (or more) as memorable as possible, and if you can (and your players go for it), give each player an opportunity to shine- put him or her in the spotlight and build it up a little so that they have to do a little more or else let everybody down. Don't push it however, every now and then, or as often as it keeps working- and vary it.

Cheers PDR

 

[Dedekind]

I can't really speak to the time issue, other than it is rude behavior that wouldn't be tolerated in most other social situations.

Regarding their in-game actions:

If most people are new, I think I would cut them a little slack. When I first started playing I only wanted to roll dice and kill bad guys. More creative tactics and more interest in the non-combat aspects didn't really come until several years later. They will have the most fun if you meet their expectations.

For your own fun, you may have to "teach" them to be creative. Put them in a situation where they have to do something before they can really attack. Add traps or terrain that force decisions. Your players need simple tactical choices and non-attack options that really add value (close the door, focus fire, disable traps, etc.).

You may also want to lower the difficulty of non-attack options if you want to encourage that. Recently, a player tried to knock down a pillar on the monster. Logically, a load-bearing pillar would both be hard to knock down and possibly cause the roof to collapse on the player and monster. Illogically, I want the player to do interesting things. I made it a moderate check, moderate damage, and there were no negative consequences except the addition of some difficult terrain.

 

[Dedekind]

<---- stupid, stupid, stupid

 

[Umbran]

I can't really speak to the time issue, other than it is rude behavior that wouldn't be tolerated in most other social situations.

Funny, because it seems to me quite the opposite - tardiness is epidemic to endemic. You give a party start time, or tell folks dinner will be ready at a given time, or tell them to meet you at the apple orchard at a set hour, or whatever, and folks are always wandering in late.

Part of this is just how things work - the universe doesn't always allow us to be timely, so we must be flexible in what we tolerate. However, given that, many people then take advantage of the situation, and don't actually put much effort into arriving on time.

 

[Dedekind]

Funny, because it seems to me quite the opposite - tardiness is epidemic to endemic. You give a party start time, or tell folks dinner will be ready at a given time, or tell them to meet you at the apple orchard at a set hour, or whatever, and folks are always wandering in late.

I knew I should have left this sentence out...

IMO, it would normally be considered rude because everybody is waiting on the laggards. Parties can start without everybody, dinner can be kept warm for late people, and apples can be picked in their own time.

D&D, however, requires everybody to be present to start and so the last arrival and the first departure dictate the time of the game.

I fully acknowledge, however, that I may be in the minority in regarding late players as being rude.
I also know that you can play D&D with people showing up later.

 

[nedjer]

Looks to me like they're paying you a bit of a compliment, as they're turning up to hang out as much as anything else and playing along despite a considerable disinterest in crunchy rules.

Whatever the system how about trying them with some challenges and tricks?
Might let them digest the crunchy parts at a more comfortable pace

 

[amerigoV]

D&D, however, requires everybody to be present to start and so the last arrival and the first departure dictate the time of the game.

I also know that you can play D&D with people showing up later.

I have become less tolerant of poeple being late. I tell them, "The game starts at x o'clock. Feel free to come a bit early if you want to socialize. We play with the people at that there. If a fight starts, the present players PC's are the ones that participate. If you get your butt kicked, call your buddy and yell at them for being late. Not my fault."

I have found a bit of pressure (polite, but firm) works wonderfully. I provide the game, the group is reasonsible for getting everyone there on time with characters up to date. A fair exchange.

 

[thegrumpyyoungman]

about tardiness...i was always taught (and practiced in the business world) that when you are late, you are saying one thing:

"whatever i'm doing is more important than what everyone else is doing" and "my schedule is more important than yours".

that is exactly what being late means. 5 minutes late? no big deal. 15 minutes late? im starting to look at my watch. 30 minutes late? you just dont care about when we start or what's going on at the meeting place. as most DM's that have players of the older age group (i would say 27 and up or so...i know its not that old, but its not teenager either), getting everyone together to jive with work schedules, spouses, kids, social schedules, etc....is like getting the planets to align. when you do actually get on Saturday set and everything is ready to go...and someone comes in 30-45 minutes late, it screws everything up.

i want to have fun, but i want to not be playing for 5-6 hours. well i take that back, i want to, but i respect the schedules of my players who want to be there no more than 4 hours. they have places to go, people to see, families to care for. i respect that, and keep my game sessions down to a 4 hour max. so when one guy shows up 30-45 minutes late, and then he gets something to eat, and then has to look over his character sheet...we've lost an hour. this is where i get frustrated. yes i could just say "well if you cant get here on time, then you cant come"....but ive only got 3 guys. if i had 6, then id make the late people "late to the game". i dont have that luxury right now.

anyway...about getting them to be creative. the more i DM, the more im starting to get to the point where i can just kinda flow with it and let things happen. my first few games i really tried to make DnD like the old game Heroquest which is basically DnD on rails with no choices really other than to open this door or that with one door being a dead end. that did NOT work out well as you can imagine and my players got bored. this past session though my players were immersed into the world i had created and i got lots of compliments. it will really hit the roof though when they start being more creative which will come with experience and time for them. i do like the idea though of forcing them into situations where they have to be creative.

on the same note, have you guys ever used a reward system for being creative. i've seen "fate points" or something similar that DM's give out to the players when they decide to push the pillar on top of the monster and slide down the pillar to drop kick the other monster...instead of attacking it head on. im considering doing that, but i want to make sure i dont make the game TOO easy for them. thoughts?

 

[invokethehojo]

3. Start Close to on Time - So only one player makes it on time. Don't wait. Start the game. Let the other PCs integrate into the story as they show up. Let them update character sheets on the fly as need be. My late players started getting to the game closer on time when I just started when I said I was going to start. They were still late, but I was a lot less frustrated - it was their loss not mine.

I am also a overly prepared DM who was in a simlar situation. I used the above tactic a year ago and it helped a lot. I had to write around it, but that wasn't too hard. The PC's got hired by a local lord to clean out and old keep near town that was infested with goblins. When the were done the lords adviser brought them a secret deal. A nobleman in town had the money to buy the keep, and the lord couldn't refuse him without looking like a dick in political terms, but he did not want this noble to gain the keep, fearing he would use it to usurp power. So the adviser gave the PC's a deed to the keep, which he told them they found while cleaning it out. The keep was theirs to... keep, as long as they never mentioned this deal to anyone.

So now each session ends with them going back to their home base, since owning a keep is cool so who wouldn't want a home base. We start each session there, and whoever is first to arrive can choose how to start. They can see whats going on at the keep or do things in town (I used Fallcrest from the DMG), which gives them a chance to RP, get to know local NPC's, pick up hooks for adventures, and sometimes develop their own little side stories (the cleric built a small church at the keep). Once the late ones show up we move on to the adventure of the week. It worked out very well, both I and the players liked it, and Fallcrest gave me the feeling of being well prepared without too much work on my part (I just read it several times to familiarize myself with the region, then began to add my own stuff).

hope that helps

 

[thegrumpyyoungman]

I am also a overly prepared DM who was in a simlar situation. I used the above tactic a year ago and it helped a lot. I had to write around it, but that wasn't too hard. The PC's got hired by a local lord to clean out and old keep near town that was infested with goblins. When the were done the lords adviser brought them a secret deal. A nobleman in town had the money to buy the keep, and the lord couldn't refuse him without looking like a dick in political terms, but he did not want this noble to gain the keep, fearing he would use it to usurp power. So the adviser gave the PC's a deed to the keep, which he told them they found while cleaning it out. The keep was theirs to... keep, as long as they never mentioned this deal to anyone.

So now each session ends with them going back to their home base, since owning a keep is cool so who wouldn't want a home base. We start each session there, and whoever is first to arrive can choose how to start. They can see whats going on at the keep or do things in town (I used Fallcrest from the DMG), which gives them a chance to RP, get to know local NPC's, pick up hooks for adventures, and sometimes develop their own little side stories (the cleric built a small church at the keep). Once the late ones show up we move on to the adventure of the week. It worked out very well, both I and the players liked it, and Fallcrest gave me the feeling of being well prepared without too much work on my part (I just read it several times to familiarize myself with the region, then began to add my own stuff).

hope that helps

hmmm...i like the idea of rewarding the early/on time. the only trouble for THIS particular session coming up is that i left it at a cliffhanger. one of the players just got captured by a vine horror, and the other two players are basically standing in the middle of a forest ready to do the next thing.

im going to start this session off with a skill challenge to catch up to the vine horror as it "runs" through the forest, and the captured player will have a skill challenge to escape the grasp.

so if the player that is captured is late...eh...i guess he doesnt get the xp or whatever since he wont escape the grasp. if one of the others is late, then only one would be able to run the skill challenge. and the other is just left behind or comes in when he arrives physically?

should i hold off on the early mini quest stuff until next time? i like the home base idea btw.