Has the Vancian Magic Thread Burned Down the Forest Yet? (My Bad, People)

[Lanefan]

One other "balancer" I just remembered that 1e had but has somewhere since been lost: casting time and resulting interruptability.

If a spell takes time to cast, even within a round, that means in combat there's a lot more opportunity to interrupt it. Do away with combat casting and make it that ANY interruption destroys the spell (with a possible surge of wild magic as a side effect) and spellcasters come down to earth in a real big hurry.

Lanefan

 

[Aldarc]

So, to paraphrase... readers would likely assume magic works however it is described in what they're reading because each is different. Not vanican (except in vance), or spell points, or true20-style, anything else as a universal (or even predominant) choice.

I think you're agreeing with me here.

I think I miswrote what I meant. It should be, "[Fantasy novels and myths] may not get into the quirks of the system to explain the details, but that does not mean that magic generally 'operates' along Vancian lines or assumptions." But to clarify that more succinctly, I think most fictional magic operates along non-Vancian lines. I admit that this is somewhat unfair considering that non-Vancian magic is basically over other magic system and not a single one, but the depiction of magic is usually something of a blend of non-Vancian systems. IMO, creating a magic system this blend allows for the greatest magical utility for roleplaying.

Except when you've used you 5th level daily (for example).

I did mention "per day mojo" in my post. I disagree with you here or at least I interpret it differently. I'll try my best to articulate that, so please be patient. In the case of daily powers, they can be swapped as you gain levels and 'unlock' a new daily power level. The emphasis is on the power being a daily. You choose daily powers, which can be of a maximum power level. You "fire-and-forget" a daily power. The emphasis of power resource management is on it being a daily power. But in the case of more standard D&D Vancian magic, the focus is on the spell level of the spell slots. The power resource management is that you run out of a set number of spell slots per level. What this means for purposes of our discussion is that daily powers can be interpreted as being powers that exhaust your daily energy. But again, the resource management in standard D&D Vancian magic is on the spell level slots, so you run out of level 5 spells, despite you somehow having enough energy for casting level 6 and 7 spells.

Standard D&D Vancian: resource management emphasizes a limited number of spell slots per level.
4E D&D Powers: resource mangagement emphasizes a limited number of encounter/daily/utility powers.

One of my gripes about 4E powers is that they are not more like known powers you can spontaneously use for a given amount of times. Once you use a "per encounter" power you cannot use it again. While I can understand the intent to prevent abuse of specific encounter powers or encourage a varied power use, I dislike how that prevents the system from being more "organic." While I like how the power system balances classes (in theory) and gives the non-magical classes their own "spell lists" to make them more engaged, I honestly doubt that 4E's magic system would be my first choice of spell systems. (That's one of the reasons why I found an earlier comment somone directed at me in this thread being defensive about 4E to be somewhat...odd... to say the least.)

 

[Mon]

I think I miswrote what I meant. It should be, "[Fantasy novels and myths] may not get into the quirks of the system to explain the details, but that does not mean that magic generally 'operates' along Vancian lines or assumptions."

No worries. Typos are a common mistakw.

But to clarify that more succinctly, I think most fictional magic operates along non-Vancian lines. I admit that this is somewhat unfair considering that non-Vancian magic is basically over other magic system and not a single one, but the depiction of magic is usually something of a blend of non-Vancian systems. IMO, creating a magic system this blend allows for the greatest magical utility for roleplaying.

Reasonable. However is it a subjective statement rather than an objective truth. For example, you could substitute any other magic system for vancian in the above paragraph and it would remain equally reasonable (and subjective).

So, it all comes back to personal preference ... something that you can't easily convince folks to change no matter how superior your preference might seem to be to you.

I did mention "per day mojo" in my post. I disagree with you here or at least I interpret it differently. I'll try my best to articulate that, so please be patient. In the case of daily powers, they can be swapped as you gain levels and 'unlock' a new daily power level. The emphasis is on the power being a daily. You choose daily powers, which can be of a maximum power level. You "fire-and-forget" a daily power. The emphasis of power resource management is on it being a daily power. But in the case of more standard D&D Vancian magic, the focus is on the spell level of the spell slots. The power resource management is that you run out of a set number of spell slots per level.

Agree this is how it works.

What this means for purposes of our discussion is that daily powers can be interpreted as being powers that exhaust your daily energy. But again, the resource management in standard D&D Vancian magic is on the spell level slots, so you run out of level 5 spells, despite you somehow having enough energy for casting level 6 and 7 spells.

I don't see that as being different from expending your first level daily power and somehow still having the (more powerful) 5th level one available. But I see where you're coming from.

Vancian magic is not at all about gradual energy expenditure over time in the way spell points are... it's going for a completely different angle. It still represents your total available mojo, and it's expenditure, however. If your available mojo/energy is represented by nine apples, and you allocate 2 for breakfast, 3 for lunch, and 4 for dinner then eating breakfast doesn't stop you having your four at dinner time.

One of my gripes about 4E powers is that they are not more like known powers you can spontaneously use for a given amount of times. Once you use a "per encounter" power you cannot use it again. While I can understand the intent to prevent abuse of specific encounter powers or encourage a varied power use, I dislike how that prevents the system from being more "organic." While I like how the power system balances classes (in theory) and gives the non-magical classes their own "spell lists" to make them more engaged, I honestly doubt that 4E's magic system would be my first choice of spell systems. (That's one of the reasons why I found an earlier comment somone directed at me in this thread being defensive about 4E to be somewhat...odd... to say the least.)

Fair enough.

For the record, I am not trying to change your opinion or prove you wrong in this discussion (as I said, I share parts of it), just convince you to cut back a bit on the imposition on others. Kudos to you for doing so (as you said, you've moved away from the extreme side). If I could give you XP again I would do so, but I need to spread some more around since I already gave you some after feeling bad about wrongfully accusing you of rephrasing earlier.

 

[giant.robot]

ne of my gripes about 4E powers is that they are not more like known powers you can spontaneously use for a given amount of times. Once you use a "per encounter" power you cannot use it again. While I can understand the intent to prevent abuse of specific encounter powers or encourage a varied power use, I dislike how that prevents the system from being more "organic." While I like how the power system balances classes (in theory) and gives the non-magical classes their own "spell lists" to make them more engaged, I honestly doubt that 4E's magic system would be my first choice of spell systems.

Keep in mind what "encounters" actually are: intense action punctuated by a short rest. A more descriptive name for "Encounter powers" would be "Power that you can use once per short rest". I find keeping that concept in mind really helps with the narrative around encounter powers. Likewise "daily" powers are simply powers you can use once between extended rests.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think most fictional magic operates along non-Vancian lines.

I would say that- but for a very few exceptions- determining how magic works in a work of fiction is more about game design than the way the writer thinks about magic's mechanics...if the writer has done so at all.

Two Notable Exceptions:

There is one series of fiction (I think it's Gordon Dickson's Dragon & the George books, but don't quote me on that) in which magic users have "
magic accounts just like checking accounts. You have a balance. You subtract by casting. You add by doing other things. But your "experience level" has nothing to do with your balance. It is entirely possible for a "noob" to have a whopping huge account, and a learned Mage to be stuck for a while with nothing.

Larry Niven's Magic Goes Away stories are a classic mana system. Mana powers magic, but it is not a personal resource in large amounts. It must be gathered from objects & creatures in the caster's vicinity. And it is amazingly precious- it doesn't recharge on the time scale of human lives, so once an area is depleted, it is devoid of magic for aaages..


The former system looks like a natural for spell points. But by it's nature, SPs modelling this system exactly would be allocated in a somewhat random fashion, leading to all kinds of balance issues. A skills based system- or SP/skill fusion- might be better.

The latter was actually modeled well in the original Dark Sun's Defiler magic- a Vancian system. Using a SP system here could lead to very short battles, since the first caster to get a stranglehold on the local mana cannot lose...because by doing so, he simultaneously powers his own magic while preventing others from powering theirs.

But other books?

Why do these elves in this series cast levin bolts effortlessly? It could be because thats a natural to them as breathing. Or are they tapping into an external source? Or are they flinging about their personal life force?

Unless the author tells you, you're projecting your personal perspective as a gamer or designer onto the fiction.

 

[Gryph]

While I know I can do Vancian magic in HERO- I've done so in the past- it is one of the things that, to me, helps separate D&D from all those other FRPGs out there.

Have to spread XP, etc. HERO is a great choice for non-Vancian, flavorful magic systems.

 

[Gryph]

First I want to say that I've always hated the Vancian system. That's actually the one reason that made me jump to 4E without looking back.

IMO, the biggest problem is not the "fire-and-forget" aspect. In other systems the same happens when one is depleted of mana.
The problem is the pre-selection and preparation of spells. Like, a caster has to count on whatever spells he thought would be good for the day, and that's it. All magical power you have has to be used on exactly those. That's just nonsense.

I used to agree with this. Then we tried playing a 1e game using a houserule that spell slots determined only number of castable spells with no pre-memorization. The casters came to dominate play since they always had the perfect spell. We went back to memorization after a few months.

There are ways to balance casters with non-casters without memorization but you have to abandon all aspects of the Vancian system to get there.

 

[Gryph]

Seriously? Wow. I'd always considered this to be the Vancian system's biggest bug, not a feature.

If the spellcasters are dealing with all the threats in the early encounters, and the warriors are dealing with all the threats in the later encounters, that means you've got people sitting around feeling they can't contribute much in every encounter.

Wouldn't it be better for both the spellcasters and the warriors to have something useful to do in pretty much every encounter?

After 2 years of 4e's design to give everyone something to do in every situation, I vehemently disagree with this. I very much prefer a rotating spotlight approach.

If everyone is special, then no one is special.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Wouldn't it be better for both the spellcasters and the warriors to have something useful to do in pretty much every encounter?

They are both very much needed members of the party and both have very much to do. It's a bunch of nonsense that mages outshines the fighter. They're both huge contributors to a party.

But you know what? I've now realized that there is one great balancing factor that people are overlooking.

That is spells run out and casters, especially mages, are at their weakest when they have no spells to cast. When this happens they can only use slings daggers and staff. They can't really wear armor. It also takes them at least a quarter of the day.

A fighter does not have this problem. Hit points be damned, because casters have far less hp than fighters. A Fighter has a d10 in comparison to a d4. Barbarians have a d12. Not including their Constitution bonuses or any other bonuses from things like feats (for 3.5e) or abilities. You can take away a fighter's equipment, but they can still defend themselves and dish out a lot of damage. And, when it came down to it, without the spells a mage would lose to a fighter type every time.

Clerics do have some fighting abilities, but that is not their focus. Their focus is on the spells they get from their deity they serve. And parties will last a lot longer if the Cleric has healing magics. In 1e and 2e their roles were primarily the medic.

Basically, fighters would be infantry and front line soldiers, clerics would be medics, and mages are artillery.

So this entire thing is absolutely nonsense.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's just nonsense.

Since we're talking about translating non-existent supernatural effects from works of fiction into games, I find this humerous. Doubly so since it actually does model a magic system found in a work of fiction.

So lets look at a RWish situation: you are a member of a special forces team that is being sent to steal secrets from a safe in an enemy stronghold. Your job is cracking the safe, so you've brought everything you need to bust into a safe of the kind known to be used there, plus a couple of others, just to be sure.

The mission goes like clockwork until you get to the actual safe- unbeknownst to your intelligence sources, the safe has been reinforced by a metal that can't be cut at the temperatures your torch can generate, and has other features you've never seen before and is boobytrapped. Your gear is useless, the mission is a bust.

Youve been thwarted, just like the Mage who didn't have the right spells.