Magical Tropes and Rules you Enjoy

I apparently suck at constructive thought development, because this thread is really the sort of discussion I was hoping to invoke in the "Vancian" thread. :p

Yeah, so, um, apologies for the "Trying-to-have-a-dialogue-but-instead-pissing-off-half-of-ENWorld" fail.

There's just so many potential options and offerings for constructing a casting system that creates different--not inherently better, but different--choices, flavors, character and world-building options, etc. that Vancian magic has just begun to feel stale to me.

But it's also interesting that even for a lot of intelligent people--people who play RPGs a lot--it's not easy coming up with a balanced, interesting and fun to play magic system from scratch.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Based on my experiences with HERO, I bet most good "toolbox" RPG systems do a decent job of simulating a wide variety of magic types- and can do so side-by-side- so that you can get a real feel for how to balance such types of magic in other systems.

Or just stick with the "toolbox" RPG of your choice, that is.

Of course, the one thing to remember is that sometimes a game CAN'T accurately simulate a type of supernatural effect without it being unbalanced. In a true mana based system, nearly any magical duel will be won by the caster who gathers unto himself the most mana, because he's simultaneously powering himself up while depleting the resources of his opponents. In a sense, it would play out almost like a gunslinger's duel.
 

I like the notion of making a die roll / caster level check / spellcraft skill check to cast a spell, with the failures having the potential of fatigue-like penalties or even, for really bad failures, nonlethal or lethal damage as the magic unravels in your hands and bites you in the butt (or blows up in your face, whatever). And, a 'critical success' that allowed an enhanced effect, would be a natural corollary to that sort of system. Like a concentration check, various factors can penalize this roll (violent weather, unsteady footing, being stabbed in the kidney, being grappled, in a swarm, being bedeviled by specific spells designed for this very purpose...), and there might be various factors that could add bonuses to a casting check, such as taking ten times as long to cast the spell (allowing an arcanist to spend a minute casting Mage Armor in the morning, and avoid a chance of an embarassing and potentially hurtful failure, for instance), or having access to specific items (a masterwork 'casting tool' shaped like a wand or ring or amulet or crystal?).

Lower level spells that you've mastered, two or three spell levels below your highest level spells, would naturally become easier, until it's almost impossible to fail them, while your highest level spells (or lower level spells that you are metamagicking or 'pushing' to higher levels of effect) would be increasingly risky.

The spellcaster would use the same sort of 'roll a die, maybe fail embarassingly, maybe succeed spectacularly' mechanic that a Fighter or Rogue is using.

Limiting a generic non-critical failure to temporary fatigue, like that of a Barbarian coming out of Rage, lasting only the remainder of the combat (or 10 minutes, if used out of combat, perhaps), might be a less painful way of having a spell failure manifest than some critical fumble chart or chance of the spellcaster blowing himself, or his allies, or whatever to bit.

I'm particularly against any sort of magical fumble that could hurt the other characters. When Bob the Fighter blows it utterly, he doesn't decapitate a fellow PC, so I'd be disinclined to have the party arcanist have a 5% chance per round of accidentally causing a TPK by summoning an uncontrolled demon or detonating a fireball at his feet or whatever.
 
Last edited:

...and there might be various factors that could add bonuses to a casting check, such as taking ten times as long to cast the spell (allowing an arcanist to spend a minute casting Mage Armor in the morning, and avoid a chance of an embarassing and potentially hurtful failure, for instance),
Taking time like this is where I think rituals make sense.

A ritual in this respect (Let's say Forgreth's Impervious Barrier) takes 10 minutes to cast, requires some significant material component (over 1gp in value) and lasts for 24 hours or until the magic is broached, and provides a +6 armor bonus to AC. It has a casting DC 8/- (DC 8 to successfully cast, - represents no benefit from a critical/special casting ) and there may be a special focus that can be used to provide a bonus to casting (+2 focus bonus) or if the carapace horn of an Ankheg is used as a material component, the ritual is cast without a caster check being required).

In comparison, the canonical "Armor of the Mage" spell (one of the spells making up a traditional canon that most Wizards will have ready access to) is a standard action to cast, does not require a material component, lasts for one hour or until broached, has a casting DC 10/24 and provides a +4 armor bonus to AC (or +6 armor bonus to AC if the special casting DC of 24 is made) and lasts for an hour or until broached.

In essence rituals are generally better (and more specific) than their canonical spell counterparts. However, you still might have several other "named" spell versions that are significantly rarer and wondrous.
"Lucifus's Brisk Protection" might be similar to Armor of the Mage except be a swift action to cast with DC 18/26 providing the +4/+6 bonus to armor class, only lasting one minute but remains even if broached and if the casting is failed, then the caster must make a fort save DC 15 or be fatigued.

All of these would be "1st" level spells. However, only the canonical spells are found in the Player's Handbook. Other variations are kept in the GM's Liber Arcanus along with magical items. [That's one thing I would dearly love to see again in terms of preserving the mystery of the game for as long as possible.]

Lower level spells that you've mastered, two or three spell levels below your highest level spells, would naturally become easier, until it's almost impossible to fail them, while your highest level spells (or lower level spells that you are metamagicking or 'pushing' to higher levels of effect) would be increasingly risky.
As a general theme certainly. I love the idea of variation though and having harder to cast spells at 1st level, maybe having heightened effects or being based on a more difficult to master magic provides a real spice of choice.

I think the other interesting facet to this is that of spellcraft and lore and knowledge about magic. Some spells might be notoriously difficult to learn, while others are like the standard canon and of a standard difficulty. However, you might get a bonus to your spellcraft check to learn a particular spell if you already have mastered a specific related spell. For example you might get a +10 bonus to learn Argrimm's Storm of Hellfire (spellcraft DC 32) if you have already mastered the lesser Argrimm's Fireball. Or in reverse, if you have mastered a higher level spell, you may get a +4 bonus to learn the lesser Lucifus's Brisk Protection.

I'm just spraying out ideas here but I think you could form a fantastic repertoire of spells that maintains the mystery while at the same time provides a subtle limiting of casting so that a wizard does not tread on other class' toes quite as hard. Just some thoughts.


...Limiting a generic non-critical failure to temporary fatigue, like that of a Barbarian coming out of Rage, lasting only the remainder of the combat (or 10 minutes, if used out of combat, perhaps), might be a less painful way of having a spell failure manifest than some critical fumble chart or chance of the spellcaster blowing himself, or his allies, or whatever to bits.
Again in general I firmly agree with this. However, perhaps there is a notoriously difficult piece of magic out there (suitable more for a ritual than a spell) that if failed will kill the caster (or perhaps more interestingly foist them into the pits of hell or some other extreme end). It is the type of thing, dangerous to learn, dangerous to cast that only a wizard truly desperate (or truly mad) would attempt. The PCs would most likely never even try to learn such a spell let alone attempt to cast it, but knowing that such a thing is out there adds to the mystery and danger of magic as a whole while not directly affecting the PCs. Although if the party wizard did happen to have learned such a piece of diabolic arcanery - such a being would be worshipped by some, feared by many but notorious to all.

...I'm particularly against any sort of magical fumble that could hurt the other characters. When Bob the Fighter blows it utterly, he doesn't decapitate a fellow PC, so I'd be disinclined to have the party arcanist have a 5% chance per round of accidentally causing a TPK by summoning an uncontrolled demon or detonating a fireball at his feet or whatever.
Yes and yes. Magical limits on spells are there to provide an interesting range of choices and possible repercussions for the caster, not to blow up the rest of the party. Some spells might be a little indiscriminant but as usual, it is up to the caster to manage their magicks or fear the wroth of the rest of what's left of the party.

Thanks again for the response - I love stuff like this.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

(Lots of Great Stuff)

See this is EXACTLY what I was trying to get at over in the "Vancian Forest Burning / Must Go Away" thread.

There are so, so, so many ways that basic Vancian casting could be tweaked into something that provides more interesting character and tactical choices besides "I put spell X into slot Y."

I think the reasons for doing so are balance, as mentioned, but also for character development. If you really have to prepare your character to effectively play a caster, it highly discourages the "dipping" effect mechanics-wise, but can potentially help the player really think about why the character is so devoted to magic. If there's real consequences--both meta-game, and in game--for potential spell failure, and the player has to be more strategic and tactical with their spell and character choices, that's a good thing to me.

The downside is obviously that such an approach means people that play casters need a higher level of system mastery--even higher than they do now. For example, My wife can play a basic cleric right now because there's really not many choices to make. Pick the best spells that seem useful, and swap out healing as applicable. Throw in another layer of complexity, and there's no way she'd go for it.

Plus, there's another layer of adjudication that goes on top of the actual spell effects themselves--which is already a common slow-down for many groups. But the overall effect of something like Herremann suggested is highly positive.

And besides, is it a bad thing to expect a more experienced player to play the caster classes? Something about the whole, "With great power comes great responsibility," or some such notion. :) If your character can kill stuff by speaking a few words and waving some bat dung around, I think it's a good thing to have a player that takes their RPGs a little more seriously pulling the character strings.
 

4e introduced the "ritual"
Minor quibble - 4e didn't introduce the ritual, any more than it introduced skill challenges, among other "4Eisms". :)

Anyway...

1. Magic is mysterious and potentially deadly for the caster. The art of playing with one's soul as it were.

2. Magic is not easy to cast (not automatic at the very least). Miscasting is a reality and a dangerous one.

3. Casting magic can be wearying for the caster - eventually exhausting them or worse if they seek beyond their limits.

4. I still love the idea of casters discovering new magic and putting their name to it as per the Dying Earth series. Forging one's name into the history of a world's magic is always an empowering option.

How about you?
I like your taste in magic! :D


But then, I like a wide variety of different approaches. D&D's (pre-4e, or "pseudo-Vancian", iow) is just one of them. As far as D&D/d20/OGL goes, Mongoose's Conan RPG is great, for example. But omg, there are many, many others that are just as fun, and immersive.
 

Hmm. Here's what I would like in a magic system:
  • Most magic is low-powered (except the occasional Grand Ritual of Doom that takes days and ungodly amounts of components to cast), but magic is also rare. In other words, while your wizard may have to struggle mightily to cast a spell of invisibility, the world is not set up to defend against invisible people, so it's worth the effort. I like this both for thematic reasons and because it makes it easier to comprehend the game world. Besides, DMs who aren't specifically interested in exploring the consequences of magic on the setting tend to fall back on "rare magic" without even realizing it; in systems that don't anticipate this, wizards can become crazy powerful because there are no checks on their actions.
  • No "Swiss Army knife" wizards. Each spellcasting class has a defined and limited power-set oriented around a theme. In 3E D&D terms: Less of the wizard and sorceror, more of the warmage, beguiler, and dread necromancer. Each class should have its own unique mechanics that serve the theme, as far as it is practical to implement. In a classless system, each thematic group of spells/magical powers should have a high point cost to "buy in," discouraging dabblers. This adds tremendous flavor to the spellcasting classes, and also helps keep the casters balanced by preventing them from becoming the goddamn Batman.
  • No Fantasy Gasoline. This is just a pet peeve of mine, and has less to do with the mechanical system than the conceptual underpinning. I get really tired of magic systems in which the mundane and the magical are strictly distinct, and all magic is fueled by [mana/magical energy/the One Power/the Force/quintessence/lyrium/what-freakin'-ever] which must be poured into wizards to make them go. For all my dislike of Vancian magic, I will give it this: It doesn't run on Fantasy Gasoline. (I'm more open to systems in which magic runs on "fuel" if that fuel has a function outside of a wizard's gas tank. For instance, I don't count Dark Sun's defiling magic as Fantasy Gasoline, because the life-force used by Dark Sun wizards is also what keeps living things alive. It's part of the natural world, not an adjunct whose only purpose is to make the magic happen.)
  • Magic is dangerous to the user, but not in a nuisance way. This is a major design challenge. I want wizard characters to fear using their magic casually--but not so much that they never use it at all! Moreover, the danger should not take the form of a "gotcha" where a bad die roll means you're arbitrarily screwed over for using your own class features. I think one approach worth looking into would be to tie the dangers of magic to entities in the game world. You can use your magic, and it won't blow up in your face, but sometimes it will draw unwanted attention, in the same way that picking a noisy fight with the guards can draw unwanted attention when you're trying to infiltrate a fortress.
  • Magic favors subtlety and cunning over flashy destruction. Just personal taste, and again there's an exception for the occasional Grand Ritual of Doom.
  • The mechanics of the magic are shaped by the flavor of the magic, and thus heighten the flavor in-game. For instance, if your spells involve calling on spirits to do things for you, the spirits should exist as distinct entities within the rules; they should not simply be handwaved as a "flavor detail."
  • Magic feels organic and natural. This is very hard to define, but to a great extent it's about having the magic be tied into the world it's a part of. Again going back to Dark Sun, defiling magic always felt strongly connected to the game world, in a way that the vanilla Vancian magic of other D&D settings never did to me. It felt like it belonged there, instead of just being slotted in. I've never read the Dying Earth books, but I'm willing to bet Vancian magic feels a lot more natural in the Dying Earth than it does in D&D. Of course, achieving this feel can be difficult when designing a "general-purpose" magic system to be used in multiple settings.
 
Last edited:

I enjoy powerful but rare magic, improv spellcasting, and horrible backlash (like opening a portal to a demon plane and sucking your poor clothy mcfingers into it)
 

When Bob the Fighter blows it utterly, he doesn't decapitate a fellow PC

That actually depends on the skill of the PC, the situation in question, the weapon in question and whether there are critical fumble charts...esp. bloody ones.

I've seen a LOT of PCs get tanked by friendly fire from undertalented archers firing into combat, for instance.

Besides, if magic is dangerous, why should it only be dangerous to foes? especially if it is a wild, untamed thing, such as raw magic shaping (as opposed to true spellcasting).

One of the nifty things about Stormbringer was that all magic came from summoned and/or bound elementals or demons. If you screwed up the ritual, the being would be summoned but not in control...COMBAT TIME!
 

Nice thread idea.

Some of my own thoughts:

1) Magic requires some innate talent for it. Mechanically, I'm fine with that being represented by a minimum attribute value (13 Int, say) or a specific point based Talent (various ways to define in HERO or GURPS).

2) Magic is hard. It requires study and practice for every spell mastered by the caster. OR, it can be gifted by a supernatural being, be it God, Demon, Elemental Spirit, etc. If gifted there is a reciprocal cost to be paid, in game, by the caster. As the GM if you take the shortcut I get to tie strings to your character.

3) Individuals spells are not easy to cast. Since caster are messing with the fabric of the universe, a good magic system should have elements that represent the difficulty. My baseline is time. The more powerful the spell, the longer it takes to cast. Then you can start adding elements to replace the time to cast. Such as, Casting ahead of time and storing the spell into a scroll/wand/etc., preparing the spell ahead of time and keeping it in your brain to be released with a few words/gestures (Vancian), expanding energy/life-force to fuel the spell (maybe the casters maybe a sacrifice).

4) I personally don't care for games where magic using player characters are inherently supernatural beings themselves; whether by bloodline, wild talent. In D&D terms, I like Warlocks, I don't like Sorcerors.
 

Remove ads

Top