Thief seems overpowered to this new/old DM

I believe that you are mistaken here.

I doubt any 1st level Rangers can sustain a near average of 20 damage at first level with At Will powers.

Taking Weapon Proficiency Greatbow, that would be 2D12+1D6 with Twin Strike for 16.5 average damage IF both attacks hit. If one misses, that's 10 average damage.

I should back up for a second, and clarify that the numbers I was going by weren't accounting for whether attacks hit or missed - henced why I usually mentioned accuracy seperately. You claimed that the thief was doing 20 damage with his At-Will powers, so I took a look at what damage other classes did with At-Will (and Encounter, etc) powers.

You are correct about the ranger - I think I was accounting for both Greatbow and Weapon Focus. That said, I think it is definitely worth noting that while rangers start a few points behind, they ramp up quickly, since every static bonus to damage gets doubled. I'd say they catch up pretty quick - and, yes, definitely burst higher when using encounters and dailies.

I'm also not entirely sold on the numbers you are using - assuming thieves will have combat advantage is reasonable enough, but assuming others will never have it is less so. Additionally, the attack bonus of your thief seems higher than it should be - and intentionally ignoring the stronger ranger encounter powers seems an easy way to dismiss the damage they can deal. A ranger isn't going to use a random 2W encounter power to deal damage - they will use something like Two-Fanged Strike, potentially deal 2d12+1d6+Dex+Dex+Wis. Dailies include options like Skirmishing Stance - potentially +1d8 damage every round for an encounter. Or Guardian Arrow, which can basicaly given an extra attack each round against one enemy.

And really optimized builds can even bypass the thief. A dwarven ranger with a gouge is looking at ~17.8 average damage via Twin Strike. Or ~25 average damage on the round he uses Two-Fanged Strike. Now, he's more fragile than the rogue, and not as simple to build - but definitely leaves him behind in terms of raw damage.

No contest. The low level Thief kills one foe per 2 rounds. The low level Ranger kills one foe per 3 rounds. The Thief lowers a 6 round encounter down to 5 rounds most encounters compared to the Ranger.

If you limit yourselves to average 1st level characters, yes, the thief probably comes out ahead of the rogue. Though I don't believe by as much as you are claiming.

Once you get a few levels in, the ranger has pretty much caught up. Each new bonus to damage helps out more. Each new encounter and daily power is significantly stronger than each new backstab the rogue gets.

And, as noted, many other strikers are comparable. You focused heavily here on the ranger, but ignored the fact that many other strikers deal similar damage as well.
 

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I should back up for a second, and clarify that the numbers I was going by weren't accounting for whether attacks hit or missed - henced why I usually mentioned accuracy seperately. You claimed that the thief was doing 20 damage with his At-Will powers, so I took a look at what damage other classes did with At-Will (and Encounter, etc) powers.

You are correct about the ranger - I think I was accounting for both Greatbow and Weapon Focus. That said, I think it is definitely worth noting that while rangers start a few points behind, they ramp up quickly, since every static bonus to damage gets doubled. I'd say they catch up pretty quick - and, yes, definitely burst higher when using encounters and dailies.

With At Will powers, they don't ramp up to similar damage until late Heroic or early Paragon.

Overall damage, they ramp up around level 7 when they get their 3rd Encounter power.

I'm also not entirely sold on the numbers you are using - assuming thieves will have combat advantage is reasonable enough, but assuming others will never have it is less so.

This statement is true for melee types, not true for ranged types. It usually takes quite a few levels before ranged PCs can start acquiring CA because the main two ways to get it are via powers/feats, or by shooting at point blank range.

Additionally, the attack bonus of your thief seems higher than it should be - and intentionally ignoring the stronger ranger encounter powers seems an easy way to dismiss the damage they can deal.

Ah, but you cannot have it both ways. You cannot ignore DPR with one breath ("clarify that the numbers I was going by weren't accounting for whether attacks hit or missed ") and then say "but Rangers get Encounter powers" with the next.

Either one takes into account all factors, or one filters it down to one specific area (like At Will attacks). Picking and chosing doesn't work.

So yes, when one considers the Encounter powers, Rangers do boost up their overall Encounter DPR more than when Thieves take into account Backstab. But that extra damage still doesn't catch up to the Thief until 7th level. At 3rd level, the Thief still averages more damage per encounter.

And Daily powers are hardly noticable at heroic. A single Daily power that does 30 damage actually increases DPR for the day per round by ~1 (i.e. 5 encounters, 6 rounds per encounter). Yes, it is part of the overall damage picture, but Weapon Focus adds more DPR per day than a Daily power.

A ranger isn't going to use a random 2W encounter power to deal damage - they will use something like Two-Fanged Strike, potentially deal 2d12+1d6+Dex+Dex+Wis. Dailies include options like Skirmishing Stance - potentially +1d8 damage every round for an encounter. Or Guardian Arrow, which can basicaly given an extra attack each round against one enemy.

Skirmishing Stance is again, ~30 points of damage (4.5*6=27).

Guardian Arrow could be a lot more damage, especially against a solo, but if it is against an elite or a standard, it actually will often result in ~30 damage (or less) since the foe will go down before the entire encounter's number of rounds has passed.

And really optimized builds can even bypass the thief. A dwarven ranger with a gouge is looking at ~17.8 average damage via Twin Strike. Or ~25 average damage on the round he uses Two-Fanged Strike. Now, he's more fragile than the rogue, and not as simple to build - but definitely leaves him behind in terms of raw damage.

This is both illegal and mathematically incorrect.

First off, last I looked, a gouge is not a double weapon. It cannot be used with Twin Strike.


Even if it could, the Ranger still cannot really catch up to the Thief. Ranger 20 Str. Rogue 20 Dex. AC 15 same level foe. We'll give the Ranger Wis 14 which is the maximum he can have with a 20 Str Dwarf.

Rogue: 1D6 Shortsword, +2 Weapon Finesse, 2D8 Sneak Attack Backstabber
Ranger: 2D6 Brutal 1 Gouge, Twin Strike

I'll give Rogue CA every time since it is a class feature. I'll calculate damage for the Ranger with and without CA.

Rogue: 16.075 DPR
Rogue with Backstab (+3 to hit) once per encounter: 22.45 DPR

Ranger: 13.87125 DPR
Ranger with Two-Fanged Strike once per encounter: 21.21625 DPR

Ranger w/ CA: 15.68125
Ranger w/ CA with Two-Fanged Strike once per encounter: 24.30625

The CA every time Rogue beats the no CA Ranger in a 6 round encounter 102.825 overall damage to 90.5725.

The CA every time Rogue slightly beats the no CA Ranger in a 6 round encounter 102.825 overall damage to 102.7125.

So yes, if the Ranger has CA every single time like the Thief does (and he could use a gouge), then the Ranger will approximately tie him. But, the Thief can count on CA more often than the Ranger because the Thief can get CA from one of two stances, from flank, from allies, and from First Strike. The Ranger can only get it from allies or flank.

The Thief has an AC of 17. The Ranger has an AC of 13.

Sorry, but this melee Ranger will not even be conscious all 6 rounds to even try to tie the Thief in damage.

If the Dwarven Ranger lowers his Str to 18 and/or his Wis some, he could get +3 more AC (max AC 16 at first level). But then his encounter DPR drops by 6 in both the no CA and the all CA cases.

Note: The Scout doesn't do as much damage as the Thief either. The reason is that he does not get Twin Strike. He gets Dual Weapon Attack which requires that the first attack hit in order to get the second attack. +2 damage for Spinning Axe Mastery doesn't add enough to make up for the one round in three getting one attack instead of two.


I'm not seeing it. You picked an illegal 8 average damage weapon (which would be unheard of damage for a single handed weapon) and still didn't quite catch up.

If you limit yourselves to average 1st level characters, yes, the thief probably comes out ahead of the rogue. Though I don't believe by as much as you are claiming.

Once you get a few levels in, the ranger has pretty much caught up. Each new bonus to damage helps out more. Each new encounter and daily power is significantly stronger than each new backstab the rogue gets.

And, as noted, many other strikers are comparable. You focused heavily here on the ranger, but ignored the fact that many other strikers deal similar damage as well.

I only focused on the Ranger because that was your suggestion as someone who could do average 20 points of damage in a round with Twin Strike.

He doesn't average 20 damage at first level, regardless of how you build him. To get to 20 damage, he needs to hit twice, get 3.5 damage for Hunter's Quarry, then average 8+ damage with the other two attacks. What one handed weapon averages 8 points of damage? Typically, we are talking 5.5 points of damage (longword with weapon focus, or bastard sword). It's tough picking up that extra 5 points of damage because the game doesn't have weapons or feats that add that much.

He can manage 20 points in a round with either criticals or good rolls, but he cannot average it.


Also, I've already posted the math above as to why it takes the Ranger level 7 before he catches up in Encounter damage (due to his Encounter powers). And he doesn't do it with Standard Action Encounter powers that do more damage. He does it with Immediate Interrupt or Reaction Encounter powers that give him more attacks per encounter.
 

What one handed weapon averages 8 points of damage?

Well, dwarves can average 8.5 damage per hand at first level with Dwarven Weapon Training and Waraxes or Craghammers. They're still quite a ways from achieving their long-term value, though, because you just can't get that many damage boosters at low levels, so they'll be behind rogues and thieves.

On a completely different point, I'm highly skeptical of assuming the typical fight is six rounds. In my experience (based on Season 1 of Encounters, lots of LFR modules, and a pair of home games), the typical fight is more like three or four rounds, with the occasional battle that grinds on to five or six due to annoying enemies or frustrating terrain. That affects the relative value of encounter novas. When playing my low-paragon Ranger|Warlord, I seldom have the actions to quarry my target any more, as that means giving up minor action attacks, which are a much better use of your encounter powers for melee rangers than effectively adding your Strength to Twin Strike with most of the Standard Action encounter powers.
 
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Well, dwarves can average 7.5 damage per hand at first level with Dwarven Weapon Training and Waraxes or Craghammers. They're still quite a ways from achieving their long-term value, though, because you just can't get that many damage boosters at low levels, so they'll be behind rogues and thieves.

A Double Axe would be 7.5 for each end. So, this sounds like the best weapon possible here. That's still almost 3 DPR less than the Thief without CA, 1 DPR less with CA.

Craghammer or Waraxe would be 8.5 for the main hand, but would need a Hand Axe or Throwing Hammer in the off hand for 5.5.

Dwarven Weapon Training is definitely one of the best damage feats because it gives weapon proficiency as well. Course, it does restrict the race of the PC as well.

On a completely different point, I'm highly skeptical of assuming the typical fight is six rounds. In my experience (based on Season 1 of Encounters, lots of LFR modules, and a pair of home games), the typical fight is more like three or four rounds, with the occasional battle that grinds on to five or six due to annoying enemies or frustrating terrain.

You should keep notes. I suspect that 3 or 4 round encounters are on the light side for many groups. I'm currently playing Encounters and it's usually at least 5 and often more. Course, we have 2.5 Strikers, so the DM might be throwing an extra monster in or so.

But even in PBP, the lowest number of rounds is typically 4 and often, they go higher. I happen to know this since I DM there and my average is just under 8 (course, DMs often challenge PCs heavier in PBP due to fewer encounters per day and the PCs are optimized so heavily).

Looking at DPR at level one for 4 PCs against 4 NPCs in a same level encounter:

Defender: +7 to hit, 9.5 damage, 65% chance to hit, 6 DPR.
Leader: +4 to hit, 8.5 damage, 60% chance to hit, 5 DPR.
Striker: +9 to hit, 19 damage, 75% chance to hit, 14 DPR.
Controller: +4 to hit, 2 targets, 7.5 damage, 60% chance to hit, 9 DPR.

That's an average of one plus NPC dying per round, but this assumes that the NPCs do not disable any of the PCs and that the Controller can manage targeting two NPCs per round. Encounter powers allow for an additional 12 damage per encounter over At Wills (12 at first level, 24 at third level, 36 at 7th level), but on the other hand, 4+ damage is wasted killing foes (i.e. the average foe dies at -4, not at 0 at level 1, at level 7, the average foes dies at -6 or more), so 16 wasted damage per encounter on average at level one.

That's 4 rounds for a same level encounter on average. It'll be an average of +1 round per level higher of the opposition. If an N encounter is 4 rounds, an N+4 encounter should often be 8 rounds.

And in order to maintain the same level of NPCs killed per round as PCs level up, every PC has to increase their DPR by 1+ every level since the NPC hit points increase on average by 8 (or 1 extra damage per PC per round for 8 rounds).

Granted, this will vary quite a bit based on party makeup, how much the DM challenges the players with terrain or more challenging foes, how well the players can focus fire on the NPCs so that the NPCs cannot take away actions from the PCs, etc. A group with 2 strikers and one of each of the other roles will take out foes faster than one with 2 leaders.

But if the PCs are wiping out foes in 4 rounds on average as opposed to at minimum, then the DM is probably not challenging them too much by throwing same level encounters at them.
 

A Double Axe would be 7.5 for each end. So, this sounds like the best weapon possible here. That's still almost 3 DPR less than the Thief without CA, 1 DPR less with CA.

Craghammer or Waraxe would be 8.5 for the main hand, but would need a Hand Axe or Throwing Hammer in the off hand for 5.5.
Nope.
Compendium said:
Two-Blade Fighting Style
Because of your focus on two-weapon melee attacks, you can wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were an off-hand weapon. (Make sure to designate on your character sheet which weapon is main and which is off-hand.) In addition, you gain Toughness as a bonus feat.
Emphasis mine. A Waraxe or Craghammer in each hand is legal.
 

You should keep notes. I suspect that 3 or 4 round encounters are on the light side for many groups. I'm currently playing Encounters and it's usually at least 5 and often more. Course, we have 2.5 Strikers, so the DM might be throwing an extra monster in or so.

My group may be unusual, but we average 10 to 15 rounds per encounter. Occasionally we have a really easy one that is just a few rounds, but those are almost always for the purpose of inserting a plot element, e.g. "Oooh, you killed the chieftan's grandson. He's going to be mad now."
 

This is both illegal and mathematically incorrect.

First off, last I looked, a gouge is not a double weapon. It cannot be used with Twin Strike.
You have a hate-on for thieves. I get that. You're also obsessed with first level DPR. I get that, too. While there's no point in debating this with you, I will point out that you're missing the point of the particular build in question (dwarf gouge ranger).

Twin Strike: that's what a Hungry Spear enchantment is for. It's the spear version of Farbond Spellblade. A first level dwarf with Dwarven Weapon Training, a DEX of 18, and a Hungry Spear Gouge is twin striking with a +7 or 8 (prime shot) (better with CA) at 10/20 range for 2d6 b1 + 3 | 2d6 b1 + 3 | 1d6.
 

A Waraxe or Craghammer in each hand is legal.

Yup. Forgot about that aspect of Two Blade when I wrote that.

Still, that's one specific type of Ranger with one specific race who needs 2 magical weapons throughout his career (3 if he wants a ranged attack) that almost catches up to an "any Dex race" Thief damage-wise at first level.

It is interesting to note that Dwarven Weapon Training was part of the Players Handbook from the start in order to damage-wise balance out Dwarves that could not get a racial Str boost (and to incentive people to play Dwarves with Hammers/Axes instead of Swords) and then they ended up giving Dwarves a racial Str boost after all. Dwarves are definitely one of the best melee type races around since that change.
 

Yup. Forgot about that aspect of Two Blade when I wrote that.

Still, that's one specific type of Ranger with one specific race who needs 2 magical weapons throughout his career (3 if he wants a ranged attack) that almost catches up to an "any Dex race" Thief damage-wise at first level.

It is interesting to note that Dwarven Weapon Training was part of the Players Handbook from the start in order to damage-wise balance out Dwarves that could not get a racial Str boost (and to incentive people to play Dwarves with Hammers/Axes instead of Swords) and then they ended up giving Dwarves a racial Str boost after all. Dwarves are definitely one of the best melee type races around since that change.
Likewise with Eladrin and the Eladrin Soldier feat. I completely failed to notice, up until several months ago, that those feats actually give you training in Superior weapons of those types. I misparsed it; I assumed that they just gave martial axes/hammers or longsword/spears. Now that I read it properly, suddenly, those feats are much better.

And they just keep getting better, every time new weapons get added; Dark Sun gives both of those access to the Gouge, for example.
 

and don´t forget a ranger double dips a leader´s bonus to damage, and bonuses to hit alo help the ranger more, as the thief may already be at cap... so in a vacuum, the thief is the best fighter... which sounds right... as the thief is the one most probably fighting solo... a ranger could scout ahead, but he does so outdoors and usually this means more room to maneuver out of harms way... also now he gets prime shot from 40 squares away...

oh, and some thiefs powers have range 5. So he needs to stay closed by...

this discussion lacks a lot of sense... as in a vacuum, it does not matter, and in a team battle, there is a lot more than damage...
 

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