Herores of the Fallen Lands - Are Slayers underpowered?

[Ryujin]

You should talk to your DM. I don't have only the players with Bluff, Diplomacy, and/or Intimidate talk to NPCs. I have every player at the table contribute. If a player wants to roll Diplomacy or Bluff, that's ok, but social roleplaying is not typically and primarily resolved via social skill rolls when I DM. It's resolved with roleplaying and possibly an occassional roll if the NPC is on the fence on something.

The die roll is for the exception (i.e. gaining an advantage that is difficult to achieve), not for the rule (i.e. talking to someone and interacting normally).

I personally think that too many DMs rely on skill dice rolls instead of relying on common sense and fun. I do the same thing for physical skills sometimes. If the players tell me how they are going to rope their way across a ravine and it makes sense that it would be fairly easy and safe to do it that way, I don't bother with dice rolls. Any party can manage it. The players already solved that problem, move on.

I try to rely on common sense but, when the odd die roll is required for success/failure in such an interaction, my low CHA players usually try to find a way to support their main negotiator. Our group requires that the player supply some sort of reasonable role played manner of supporting, rather than simply throwing down a die and hoping to make a 10+, so they rarely really feel left out.

As to the Slayer's damage with a Bard or Warlord in the party, it's trivial to have them help with the group's DPR. No conditions are required; just wade in and do MBAs.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sorry, but noone says, you must put a 20 in your mains stat...

you can easily go for 18/14/14/13 (as a human), do your job and have a 14 in charisma, combined with skil training, that allows you to be the party´s face.

You even have a 13 in int or dex so you reflex also does not suffer. I guess primary and secondary attributes are a bit overestimated here... if you don´t like to be a damage only machine, by all means, don´t build one.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Sorry, but noone says, you must put a 20 in your mains stat...

you can easily go for 18/14/14/13 (as a human), do your job and have a 14 in charisma, combined with skil training, that allows you to be the party´s face.

You even have a 13 in int or dex so you reflex also does not suffer. I guess primary and secondary attributes are a bit overestimated here... if you don´t like to be a damage only machine, by all means, don´t build one.

Sure, you can do that, and it would often make sense. But some of your points above seem a bit glib. A 13 in Int or Dex is by no means enough to make for a decent Reflex defense -- it might mean a typical attacker hits Reflex on a 6 instead of a 5, but is that really worth the points? And skill training in a single Cha skill isn't really enough to be the Face, even with a 14.

Finally, having just gone through a session where a character who started with a pre-racial 18 primary whiffed on 12 out of 14 attacks in one encounter, I'm as greedy for attack bonuses as ever.

 

[KarinsDad]

Finally, having just gone through a session where a character who started with a pre-racial 18 primary whiffed on 12 out of 14 attacks in one encounter, I'm as greedy for attack bonuses as ever.

Magic Missile

For when the dice go totally cold.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sure, you can do that, and it would often make sense. But some of your points above seem a bit glib. A 13 in Int or Dex is by no means enough to make for a decent Reflex defense -- it might mean a typical attacker hits Reflex on a 6 instead of a 5, but is that really worth the points? And skill training in a single Cha skill isn't really enough to be the Face, even with a 14.

Finally, having just gone through a session where a character who started with a pre-racial 18 primary whiffed on 12 out of 14 attacks in one encounter, I'm as greedy for attack bonuses as ever.

I wouldn't dump Dexterity if you wanted to be the party face. What's so important that you'd dump dexterity on a Slayer build? Constitution?

Bullocks.

 

[Uller]

I'm teaching some folks at work how to play. I have all the essentials books, but for convenience, most of the PCs are built using an old beta of the Character Builder. The party fighter is underpowered...he's a defender with a great axe...so his AC is too low to really do the job and he just doesn't pump out the damage that the rogue does...

So based on this thread, I recreated the character as a Slayer...

We're playing the Twisting Halls adventure in the Red Box (SPOILERS ahead).

The party opened a door and saw a goblin cutthroat. The cleric ran in, swung and missed (by-by encounter power). The goblin shrieked, hit the cleric then shifted away. The druid threw fire seed (I allow them to target empty squares to deny the enemy terrain) to block the doors with fire and catch the goblin in the flames. No damage yet to the goblin (he'll take 5 at the start of his turn).

Slayers turn. Duelist Assault. Moves. Basic Attack. Rolls a nat 20. Decided to use power strike. 35 damage. Goblin is dead.

The bugbear appears at one door and charges the cleric through the flames. Hits. The wizard (conserving dailies and encounters) MMs him. Cleric attacks (misses...he kept rolling 6s...) shifts away. Druid freezes bugbear. Two more goblins show up and attack slayer (one can reach him the other throws a dagger). One hits. Slayer bloodies a goblin (19 damage). Wizard Burning hands the two goblins, fells the bloodied one and 11 damage to the other (I forgot the OA this would have provoked). Remaining goblin attacks slayer (misses). Druid moves to cover wizard and slayer to prevent flanking and fire seeds bugbear but misses. Slayer drops last goblin (22 damage). Bugbear attacks druid and bloodies him in one swing. Wizard MM's Bugbear (we use PHB/Char Builder) version of MM and does 9 damage then shifts to give Slayer CA. Druid morphs, uses pounce, hits, uses action point, pounces again (gets sneak attack, he is multi-classed as rogue). Bugbear is down to 15 hp. Slayer moves, attacks with CA so +10 to his attack, hits and does 18 damage. Fight is over. In four attacks he did 83 hp damage and slew 3 of 4 monsters. I'd say he's NOT underpowered (and now this one has a +1 Lifedrinker Great Axe...).

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Wizard Burning hands the two goblins, fells the bloodied one and 11 damage to the other (I forgot the OA this would have provoked).

No, you did this right; Burning Hands is a Close blast, and therefore does not trigger an OA from an adjacent foe.

 

[Dausuul]

Sure, you can do that, and it would often make sense. But some of your points above seem a bit glib. A 13 in Int or Dex is by no means enough to make for a decent Reflex defense -- it might mean a typical attacker hits Reflex on a 6 instead of a 5, but is that really worth the points? And skill training in a single Cha skill isn't really enough to be the Face, even with a 14.

Well, how good a face do you expect to be with a fighter build? If you have Diplomacy trained and a 12-14 Cha, you should be able to contribute in social situations, although you won't dominate them.

Or, if you want to be strong in your "non-combat skill" instead of just okay, you can spend your Skill Training feat on Stealth instead. Slayer dexterity will serve you well here.

 

[Klaus]

Wanna be the party "face"? Take Melee Training (Charisma) and go nuts!

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I wouldn't dump Dexterity if you wanted to be the party face. What's so important that you'd dump dexterity on a Slayer build? Constitution?

Bullocks.

You need to go back and read the comment I was responding to. I wasn't the one who suggested a "13 in Int or Dex". That was UngeheuerLich, and I assume the reference was not to a Slayer but to a class that was not Dex-secondary.

If anything, I would lean towards a Melee Training (Dexterity) Slayer build, so you can keep your bullocks, because I don't need them.