Wizards: Squishy or All Powerful?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

But yeah, that's one of the reason why Wizards do have a low hp. And why a good fighter would win against a Wizard when up close.

But getting there is half the battle. And that's why fighters have lots of hit points.

Hit points don't matter against a wizard.

I cast Hold Monster. 60%+ chance the fighter is now helpless. I can now do whatever I want to him. CdG. Hit him with other spells. Or I can hit him with Heightened Glitterdust, so now he's blind. Or I can cast Mirror Image, and make it hard for him to hit me (max two chances per round, since I'll be moving; no full round attacks for him). Greater Invisibility, so now he can't even see or target me!

And even with a lowly non magical long sword, a fighter can still dish a good 30hp of damage a round. This assumes that a Fighter would have maxed out his Strength, which would be at least a 20 at tenth level. That would be a d8 plus five points of damage twice a round, or 6 to 13 for one attack, without a critical hit. So that would be 12 to 26 hp per round, for a tenth level fighter, since they get two attacks per round. With critical hits that would be 24 to 52 points of damage. Which is a lot of damage.

Okay, he hits the mage for 30 damage. The mage takes a 5 foot step (or just casts on the defensive) and freezes him in place. Or casts Dimension Door. Or casts Dominate Person. I'm sorry, but 30 hit points worth of damage aren't particularly scary if you only get to do it once.

But then again, a Wizard's useless without their spellbook. They can not cast magic without it.

And a fighter is pathetic without their gamut of AC-boosting items. Throw them both in jail, they're pretty weak. But at least the wizard doesn't forget his spells until he casts them. So if the fighter prison mate tries anything, he's still going to be frozen in place, then get shived (CdG) with his own weapon.

A Wizard and a Sorcerer even with 80 hp would get taken down pretty easily.

No they wouldn't. I'm speaking from experience, using some decent but not massively inspired tactics. Cast a defense spell, then attack. Or just attack. The fighter is nearly helpless against a mage.

 

[Diamond Cross]

A bit of nitpick, but that's not quite true. Spells that requires an attack roll can crit. Complete Arcane pg. 85. Heck, they can get sneak attack damages with weapon-like spells.

I've never read complete Arcana. When I use an example like the one I just used, I'm not talking books like those. I'm talking PHB and DMG and the good ole MM. The only other book I'd use is the Expanded Psionics HB, but only when I'm talking Psionics And also remember, books like the Complete X line are optional rules sets.

And in the PHB, the spells don't require a to hit roll.

 

[nightwyrm]

I've never read complete Arcana. When I use an example like the one I just used, I'm not talking books like those. I'm talking PHB and DMG and the good ole MM. The only other book I'd use is the Expanded Psionics HB, but only when I'm talking Psionics And also remember, books like the Complete X line are optional rules sets.

And in the PHB, the spells don't require a to hit roll.

Scorching ray does and so do most rays and touch spells.

Also, PHB 175 under Range: Touch section: "A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit."

Under Effect: Ray, also on the same page, "If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit." We are talking about 3.5, no?

I just cited Complete Arcane coz the rules was easier to find in that book.

 

[JoeGKushner]

so your telling me in 3.5 or great editions that crafting magical gear and scribing scrolls makes you dumber. That if i sat down and wrote 10 scrolls in my down time that i get to be a worse. that when i create a flaming sword and installed mirror image on it as a side ability that my magical skills get worse? I dont buy it.
build stuff for a living i don't get crappier with each desk i make.i get faster and smart about it.

It's funny you put it that way. In one of Rich Baker's stories in the Forgotten Realms elf anthology, its explained that the magic is coming from life force energies. To bypass that, one wizard uses demonic energies. Things don't turn out well for him.

 

[Mort]

I've never read complete Arcana. When I use an example like the one I just used, I'm not talking books like those. I'm talking PHB and DMG and the good ole MM. The only other book I'd use is the Expanded Psionics HB, but only when I'm talking Psionics And also remember, books like the Complete X line are optional rules sets.

And in the PHB, the spells don't require a to hit roll.

I'm away from the books but there are several core spells that require a to hit roll - most are touch attacks so not a very difficult one, but they require the roll (ray of frost does for example, not only can it crit it can be used to sneak attack for the rogue/mage, which can lead to some fun results).

 

[Diamond Cross]

Hit points don't matter against a wizard.

I cast Hold Monster. 60%+ chance the fighter is now helpless. I can now do whatever I want to him. CdG. Hit him with other spells. Or I can hit him with Heightened Glitterdust, so now he's blind. Or I can cast Mirror Image, and make it hard for him to hit me (max two chances per round, since I'll be moving; no full round attacks for him). Greater Invisibility, so now he can't even see or target me!



Okay, he hits the mage for 30 damage. The mage takes a 5 foot step (or just casts on the defensive) and freezes him in place. Or casts Dimension Door. Or casts Dominate Person. I'm sorry, but 30 hit points worth of damage aren't particularly scary if you only get to do it once.



And a fighter is pathetic without their gamut of AC-boosting items. Throw them both in jail, they're pretty weak. But at least the wizard doesn't forget his spells until he casts them. So if the fighter prison mate tries anything, he's still going to be frozen in place, then get shived (CdG) with his own weapon.



No they wouldn't. I'm speaking from experience, using some decent but not massively inspired tactics. Cast a defense spell, then attack. Or just attack. The fighter is nearly helpless against a mage.

Bull. Utter crapola.

That just sheer utter crap.

Crap crap crap crap crap crap crap.

I know I'm not going to change your mind on the matter. Once somebody's beliefs are locked in it's completely impossible to change their minds, regardless of the evidence. I've beaten plenty of Wizards in my time with a lowly fighter and they all used spells like that against me. I've also been beaten by many Wizards too, but mostly because I just misjudged them or I had a run of bad luck with the dice rolls.

The claim "spell automatically counters X" means one is talking in generalities. They're also forgetting or willfully ignoring the spell disruption rules. It's a powerful disadvantage any caster has. It's a poor way to argue.

So what it comes down to is initiative. And randomness can have a heck of an effect on play. If the fighter goes first wait for the Wizard to start casting then attack. BAM! Spell disrupted. Wizard moves a step back, take a step forward. If the Wizard turns and run, BAM! Attack of opportunity.

And even if the Wizard does go first, the fighter can still have a chance to disrupt the spell, depending upon how long it takes to cast the spell.

A smart fighter always waits until the wizard starts casting so he can have a chance to disrupt the spell.

The fighter is not useless against a wizard. The fighter has many many advantages over a Wizard.

And here's another opportunity.

Give the fighter a Ring of Spell Turning, or a Ring Of Spell Storing, or even both, and, well, there goes much of the Wizard's spells right back at him.

This doesn't count racial abilities such as the Elve's immunity to some spells. And some races get natural SR.
.

There are many different ways a fighter can beat a wizard.

This reminds me of the movie Down Periscope. Because the Admiral couldn't beat the Captain and he decided to nerf the Capatain's advantage so the Admiral can win. That's what the unimaginative do, try to nerf the other classes so their favored class can be the biggest baddest tough guy.

You can keep on making that claim, but I have a friend who will beat any Wizard you can build with a lowly fighter. And I really mean another friend as I am not that good of a player.

 

[pemerton]

BAM! Spell disrupted.

My understanding is that in 3E this only triggers a Concentration check, which for a higher level wizard is likely to be not too hard to pull off.

 

[nightwyrm]

My understanding is that in 3E this only triggers a Concentration check, which for a higher level wizard is likely to be not too hard to pull off.

But the DC for that conc. check depends on the damage dealt (DC = 10 + spell lv being cast + damage taken) which is why a readied damage spell (ie. fireball) is a better counterspell in a caster duel than actually trying to counterspell.

 

[Diamond Cross]

My understanding is that in 3E this only triggers a Concentration check, which for a higher level wizard is likely to be not too hard to pull off.

Which is a DC of 10 plus damage dealt vs a roll of d20 plus Concentration skill plus other modifiers, such as Skill Focus feat. which could be a plus 11 at first level. But when the fighter is doing fifty point of damage in a single attack, it's far more difficult to make that concentration check. A Wizard would have a very difficult time making a check against a DC of 50 or 60.

Hmmm let's see... 20th level means a maximum of Wizard's maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3. So that means 23 ranks.

If a Wizard has maxed out his Intelligence for 20th level, that would be an Int score of 25 (+7) for a sub total of +30. With Skill Focus +33. So that's 33 + 1d20 vs 50 or 60.

So it's possible, but just very difficult.

This all assumes the Wizard's going to max out his Concentration score, of course. Not everybody maxes out their important skills like that.

And by the way:

Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + spell level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

 

[Victim]

And here's another opportunity.

Give the fighter a Ring of Spell Turning, or a Ring Of Spell Storing, or even both, and, well, there goes much of the Wizard's spells right back at him.

So, you agree that spells are more important than most other considerations, and the best way to for a warrior type to beat a wizard is to somehow acquire spells of his own?